Straight wall cartridges in shotun only deer zones?

[smokin'stoegie]

Black powder and/or muzzle load hunts were, originally in the day considered Heritage or primitive type hunts for the few people that engaged in that practice. The reality is that since then the technology has advanced so much in regards to the ballistics (bullet efficiency, powder improvement and range) of BP's.
Other than the single shot I agree that pushing for rifle cartridges may have an adverse affect as I have often wondered why the MNR hasn't revisited the Reg's dealing with BP's in southern Ontario, especially near built up areas. Maybe better to let sleeping dogs lie.

 

[hunter148]

I think you misread his comment.

He was saying there are no “shotgun only” seasons.

I think you took it the other way around.

Any misinterpretation would be mine in that case. I find some of the controlled hunts confusing and I have been participating for 30 years, those that don't must just scratch their heads.

 

[flyinlead]

Seeing as bows may not be used during the controlled hunts in most WMU's, I would say shotguns have their own season that's shared with muzzleloaders in many WMU's. Very few use muzzeloaders which is why most refer to the controlled hunts in Southern Ontario as the "shotgun hunt" or "shotgun season".

Are any WMU's restricted to shotgun only during the controlled hunt?

Yes my apologies I should have stated shotgun/ muzzle loader zones in the post title, that is in fact the case but as you stated many just reference them as "shotgun"

 

[flyinlead]

Well, to follow up on my earlier post...

The reason I figure things are essentially best left alone, is that the essential reason there ever became either shotgun only, or shotgun/muzzle loader zones, was because shotguns and muzzle loaders at that time were very limited in range and capability, both energy and accuracy wise. So they were able to make a case, for having a time set aside for those willing to put in the effort, and they were able to make a case for that they were not flinging lead at the same distances the rifle hunters were, so we're safer ( so the argument goes) to be nearer to houses.
It was only in more recent times, that guys looked at the letter of the law and found ways to turn the disadvantage that it started out as, in to essentially even footing with rifle hunters.

My personal thoughts are, that raising the issue as if it will help the shotgunners/ML set, is that it will serve only to point out the very minimum of difference in capability and range that the modern 'gamed' versions of those pursuits, have become, and if anything, all I can see coming out of it is outright closure of areas that are currently open to hunt in. For the childrens!

I kinda like what a couple of the States have done, in calling it a primitive weapons season. No scopes. No repeaters. Guys that want to shoot smokeless. muzzle loaders, or scoped, rifled sabot shotguns, get to take them out the same time as all the rifle hunters.
I find it funny too, that somehow being a straight wall case is supposed to make it all better. Like a .444 Marlin, or .458 Win Mag. As opposed to any of the black powder bottle neck cartridges, like say, .577-450, or the various other black powder era bottle neck cartridges that meet the reasoning behind the separate seasons and zones in the first place. What about a sabot in a .458 case? Still good? It's good in a shotgun, so why not there?

Mostly, I think that rattling anyone's cage to try to get 'more' has a great deal of potential to cause more harm than good.

I'd far rather see a case made for doing away with separate zones and seasons.

Thats a valid concern, I wondered about that too.. However there is still quite a difference between say a 45/70 and a 270 as far as range if you run the numbers.

I think if MNR was extremely worried about the farther range of the modern sabots and ML vs older slugs they would have restriced them already.

My guess would be that if they don't like the idea of straight walls they would simply say no, as further restricing the existing SG/ML would take effort which is something gov'ts don't care for.

Now chamberings like the .458 win mag might be a little much loaded with light bullets, I never thought of that. I remember reading some states put a restiction on the case length, thus limiting velocity ie range. Lots of technicalities to consider. They should really just let gun nuts create the regs, lol at least they would make sense.

 

[flyinlead]

I don't think you'd see harvest go up much with straight wall, likely slightly though. Most deer are shot under 100 yards anyway and a lot of guys are not avid marksmen and can't kill deer much past that range anyway. I suspect you'd see less wounding. So many shotguns out there with crap scope mounts, bad triggers, using the wrong ammo.. and the sabots are so pricey nobody is willing to practice with them or test which one works best in their gun.

The orange armies that blast away are already doing it with shotguns.. would they get off more than three with a levergun?
Maybe allow single shot straight wall? Ruger no1 would be nice..
Its all food for thought.

 

[trevj]

Thats a valid concern, I wondered about that too.. However there is still quite a difference between say a 45/70 and a 270 as far as range if you run the numbers.

I think if MNR was extremely worried about the farther range of the modern sabots and ML vs older slugs they would have restriced them already.

My guess would be that if they don't like the idea of straight walls they would simply say no, as further restricing the existing SG/ML would take effort which is something gov'ts don't care for.

Now chamberings like the .458 win mag might be a little much loaded with light bullets, I never thought of that. I remember reading some states put a restiction on the case length, thus limiting velocity ie range. Lots of technicalities to consider. They should really just let gun nuts create the regs, lol at least they would make sense.

I suspect that the reason MNR has not done anything about the tech race, is tha they have not been asked to do a rewrite of the Regs. Should the issue be raised though... It becomes anybodies guess.

Guys are shooting Silhouette with 45/70. It's not a short range only proposition. In a strong action like a Ruger, it can be loaded up to some pretty serious pressures, too.

And I do recall seeing a magazine article on a 5000 FPS .458 Win Mag. He used sabots, and small light bullets. If sabots are OK in a shotgun, logic says they are OK in that Straight Wall rifle case too, no?

Like I said, I don't see any good coming from stirring this particular pot, and can see lot of people upset when they have a bunch of money tied up in stuff that gamed the original intent of the Regs, and find themselves sent back to the same old rules as the rest of the guys out there. And to be completely honest, I don't have much problem with that. I would personally, like to see the Bow and Primitive seasons, set up so that they are about the hunt, not about technology being used to make a shotgun in to a 300 yards capable rifle. Or a muzzle loader being every bit as capable range and accuracy wise, as a regular hunting rifle.

I have, in past times, taken advantage of Sk's various seasons and zones. My wife was a hunting widow, from Labour Day weekend, when Archery opened, through till just before Christmas, when Rifle season closed.

 

[tiriaq]

Way back when the shotgun only zones were established, the thought was to permit firearms which had limited range in semi settled areas. There were basically three shotgun loads for big game available - Foster pattern slugs, buckshot, round ball. Maximum range (not effective range, but maximum range) was about 800 yards. The maximum range for centerfire rifles may exceed a couple of miles. The thought was that permitting firearms with limited range would reduce the risk of a stray projectile hitting a person or property.
There was a study done in Pennsylvania which indicates that this isn't necessarily the case, but the intent was to reduce risk.
In the years since, population density has increased, as has the number of hunters, and so has shotgun performance.
Is this a regulatory issue that should be re-opened?

 

[rkm456]

Way back when the shotgun only zones were established, the thought was to permit firearms which had limited range in semi settled areas. There were basically three shotgun loads for big game available - Foster pattern slugs, buckshot, round ball. Maximum range (not effective range, but maximum range) was about 800 yards. The maximum range for centerfire rifles may exceed a couple of miles. The thought was that permitting firearms with limited range would reduce the risk of a stray projectile hitting a person or property.
There was a study done in Pennsylvania which indicates that this isn't necessarily the case, but the intent was to reduce risk.
In the years since, population density has increased, as has the number of hunters, and so has shotgun performance.
Is this a regulatory issue that should be re-opened?

Has the number of hunters increased? It's generally accepted through the industry that hunting is on a decline.

 

[trebor2880]

I'd love to see pistol caliber handguns allowed for hunting.

 

[kodiakjack]

I'd love to see pistol caliber handguns allowed for hunting.

I find the majority of handguns are pistol caliber...

;-)

 

[flyinlead]

Speaking of the stray bullet/ slug issue, have there ever been any accidents of this nature in Ontario during deer seasons? (Either rifle or SG/ML) I’ve heard of the odd accident with rifles but the ones I heard of were outside of seasons, just guys plinking or whatever.

I’d be confident to guess that the advent of sabots and high performance ML in the last couple decades have not been attributed to any rise in stray bullet accidents. Data could likely be found in the states with SG seasons as well.

I wouldn’t worry too much about the MNR rushing to take us back to foster slugs and round ball upon the mention of this stuff.. they already know about the new tech SG ML that’s being used.

As for sabots in straight wall cart, easy just make the regs say full bore bullet only and limit the case length as they have in some states (think I read 1.7” somewhere)

If I had my own choice I’d safely be using my 6.5x55. I sometimes sit some huge fields for evening stand and I only get 3 days a year to hunt deer

 

[Rynnik]

I find the majority of handguns are pistol caliber...

;-)

It would be pretty fun hunting with one of the ones that isn't though...

Posted in case rkm is still following this thread furthering their education.

 

[New Camper]

I hunt in purely residential areas and a big no to rifles for me. We in the local area have relatives that started the "Muzzleloader only" seasons back in the 80's and had to fight with the MNR in the early 2000's to keep shotguns out. Many of the local farmers were adamant "Bring in shotguns and no one hunts"

One shot is far less noticeable than what happens over in Lambton county where I live. Second hunt is in a week and next Monday morning the pumpkin army arrives. Many out of towners with little, if any, permission. It is never one shot, always three, dump the gun and spray and pray. Half mile down the road, the county line, muzzleloader only, hardly notice a thing. Neighbour who owns property on both sides noted he finds way more dead deer while combining in the shotgun zone than the other non shotgun area.

Long and short someone cutting loose with a straight walled rifle is not going to do local deer hunting any favours in Southern Ontario. I also have no issue with using a properly setup, sited in shotgun to deer hunt. Clowns that grab a bird gun, a box of buckshot or slugs and jump out on one road, trespass or use the railroad tracks for egress are the ones I have issues.

That is why we have shotgun only WMUs... Everyone gets the shaft because a few irresponsible guys. My friend is in such a WMU, and despite having several hundred acres of family property to hunt (mixed forests and crop fields) with completely safe directions to fire rifles, they are limited to an inadequate <100y shotgun hunting because a stupid law exists because stupid people. As if muzzle control isn't a prerequisite to hunting. I've spent time in SW Ontario and there is no reason a farmer shouldn't be allowed to deer hunt his mile long farm with a rifle: coyote hunters are not so hindered and a 6mm is no less lethal at range than a 6.5mm.

As to straight walled cartridges: assuming we will be stuck with stupid, I've considered the ballistics specifically of 44mag. Shooting parallel to the ground, any bullet from that will splash down in under 200y... a 30-30 ~300y. Perhaps it would logical (if we must accommodate the stupid), to require tree stand(+15' up) hunting that, in essence, creates a berm in every direction even on flat land.

 

[kodiakjack]

Posted in case rkm is still following this thread furthering their education.

 

[trevj]

Way back when the shotgun only zones were established, the thought was to permit firearms which had limited range in semi settled areas. There were basically three shotgun loads for big game available - Foster pattern slugs, buckshot, round ball. Maximum range (not effective range, but maximum range) was about 800 yards. The maximum range for centerfire rifles may exceed a couple of miles. The thought was that permitting firearms with limited range would reduce the risk of a stray projectile hitting a person or property.
There was a study done in Pennsylvania which indicates that this isn't necessarily the case, but the intent was to reduce risk.
In the years since, population density has increased, as has the number of hunters, and so has shotgun performance.
Is this a regulatory issue that should be re-opened?

Honestly, all I can see coming from it is a new set of restrictions, rather than any expansion of access.

 

[hunter148]

The main thrust of the Controlled Deer hunts in SW Ont are to control HUNTER numbers not deer. For years our area, comprises 2 county's, for a one week the MNR releases 300 tags to hunt same area allotted about 1000 tags spread over 3 separate weeks. Very rarely would we see another hunter or group over the course of the week.

Fast forward to the Wynne Liberals looking at licences as a revenue generator and the same area gets 450 tags for the week. The last 3 years has been nothing but people tripping over each other and even had a guy shoot through a fence row, over my head at a four pointer coming to my decoy and this clown had snuck in off the 402 a four lane highway. this year tags were reduced and low and behold the bull#### stopped.

It boils down to there is little land accessible to hunt and getting fewer by the year. The ones that will let you in are comfortable with a muzzleloader only and many would shut it down in a heartbeat.

Those same landowners that will let you hunt with a muzzleloader for deer will not let you coyote hunt with rifles due to the residential type living going on these days. Touch a rifle off in many of the properties i hunt and the police will be there in short order from a call three farms down. Hence why the local police all have my vehicle details saves them and me time.

My personal opinion is these controlled hunts in the London, Mt Brydges, Strathroy area are on borrowed time. Twenty years ago I had permission to hunt over 20 properties within spitting distance of home. Now down to 2 since many folks have sold in the city and moved to the country and now nobody hunts but they like to ##### when there pets and hobby chickens are taken by the coyotes that are thick as ticks now we can't hunt.

Some Controlled hunt areas have the area available for the suggested changes but not in the WMU92 area. In WMU93 where I live there is enough rifle hunting goes on and it ain't straight walled cartridges.

 

[tokguy]

Straight walled cartridges as you invision it would be great. Day 2 after the announcement there would be folks who figured out a loophole. Sad but true.