They're slow and heavy, but when I said big I meant diameter wise. I'm looking for something that'll punch a bigger hole than what currently sits in the locker. You know that old saying "you can eat right up to the hole"? I want first hand experience in seeing the difference between fast and small (270, 243) and bigger and slower (leaning towards 358win or 9.3x57/62...)
Suggestions for a "big and slow" caliber?
- Thread starter Suther
- Start date
They're slow and heavy, but when I said big I meant diameter wise. I'm looking for something that'll punch a bigger hole than what currently sits in the locker. You know that old saying "you can eat right up to the hole"? I want first hand experience in seeing the difference between fast and small (270, 243) and bigger and slower (leaning towards 358win or 9.3x57/62...)
- Location
- NFA country
Can't beat the Garrett 530 grain rounds for the big bears.
The HMS and BB 430 grain hard cast rounds are good too.
I use 405 grain Woodleigh Weld Core jacketed bullets pushed to about 1950 fps in my 1895GS as a bear load.
Nothing that's not on steel tracks walking away from that.
The HMS and BB 430 grain hard cast rounds are good too.
I use 405 grain Woodleigh Weld Core jacketed bullets pushed to about 1950 fps in my 1895GS as a bear load.
Nothing that's not on steel tracks walking away from that.
here is BIG and a miss and still a kill: https://youtu.be/6P3uwl5HzzQ
I think Suther should pursue that BLR idea a little further and should go for 450 Marlin. All the fun of 45-70 in a BLR package and ammo is no worries since he is reloading. Spitzers or whatever you want are in play and once you knock the spacer out of a magazine you can really mess around with OAL. I love a BLR action and bonus points for the takedown model.
Good fun. I'm still experimenting with mine and having a lot of fun doing it.
Good fun. I'm still experimenting with mine and having a lot of fun doing it.
I didn't really notice the 450marlin was an option in the blr. Interesting. However, I feel like a 45-70 Marlin would do the same thing for cheaper no? (the big difference I can see is the ability to use Spitzer bullets in the blr, whereas 45-70 brass is probably cheaper and more available?)
Brutus
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
458x2 inch American. Invented by Barnes in 1962 take anything in North American forests. Same bullets powder and primers as stiff 45-70. Bonus convert discarded 7mm Rem Mag brass to your cartridge from free range discards.
Ardent
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
A .300 Win Mag will beat it.
Any normal off the shelf load 150-180grs will be more impressive on big bears.Its half a dozen of one imo. The two calibers are (intentionally) nearly identical. There are cheaper and more expensive options in the marlin lineup, but if you are sort of 'on the fence' about lever actions I would read a bit more about the BLR (or the Henry Long Ranger tbh though I don't own one). Of course there are 450 marlin marlins as well lol. It all comes down to preference.
I really like a detachable magazine and I think a lot of the 'lever action' stigma (if that is a thing) is related to tubular magazines rather than the lever action itself. A rack and pinion lever action like a BLR maintains a lot of the bolt action advantages in the lever package. I personally like that a lot. The 450 marlin is a rimless cartridge and for that alone it takes a small advantage over the 45-70 in cycling.
I don't have any issue buying new brass online (it isn't cheap but the light rounds seem to last forever so far) and I would be more than happy to share sources by PM if requested.
The point is that if you are considering a BLR in 358 as stated in an earlier post, I'd take a close look at the 450 marlin as it certainly is, in my opinion at least, big and slow and a lot of fun.
Oh I've got no problem with a tube magazine, or lever actions in general. I don't have one in my collection yet, but I certainly want one at some point. A savage 99 in 358win would be almost perfect (I love the look of the 99, and it's a bit more unique compared to a Marlin or win 94), but a blr or Marlin could certainly fit the bill too.
Haha. I'd buy one of those. That would be a sweet addition to the safe if I wasn't spending my pennies on some additional reloading gear instead of rifles at the moment.
- Location
- Southern Vancouver Island
A .300 Win Mag will beat it.
I fully doubt it at close quarters unless the bugger don't know ye be there.
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I have hunted with most of the nitro cals exept 600 and 700 nitro
Also have used the 72cal black powder.
My current big and slow is a 450-400 3inch and its is a beauty to shoot and hunt with. I hunt everything from whitetail to bear. And Ardent is correct when hunting a 300WM is more impressive at lets say 100yards than the big boys. Stopping a charge is a different story but that is not what we are speaking of hear. I like the big boys as they are a blast to shoot. Different than most people's and just plain cool.
They have all seamed to group very well, and from normal hunting positions they will shock you how well they shoot. I am sure no ones is saying they are bench guns and i am sure most cannot shoot them from the bench. But my current one i think with a hair of practice anyone could become prefessont with it to hunt with.
Little blood shot meat on game is great too.
Also have used the 72cal black powder.
My current big and slow is a 450-400 3inch and its is a beauty to shoot and hunt with. I hunt everything from whitetail to bear. And Ardent is correct when hunting a 300WM is more impressive at lets say 100yards than the big boys. Stopping a charge is a different story but that is not what we are speaking of hear. I like the big boys as they are a blast to shoot. Different than most people's and just plain cool.
They have all seamed to group very well, and from normal hunting positions they will shock you how well they shoot. I am sure no ones is saying they are bench guns and i am sure most cannot shoot them from the bench. But my current one i think with a hair of practice anyone could become prefessont with it to hunt with.
Little blood shot meat on game is great too.
I'm starting to see that I have been barking up the wrong tree on the direction I've been sharing.
How about my 21" barreled Rem 700 LSS chambered in 375RUM 350gr TTSX or Woodleigh @ 2450fps should fit the bill or you can down load it to equal low end 375 H&H or Ruger loads and when you feel like reaching out load it with 260gr Accubonds @ 3020fps and reach out to 600 yards.
How about my 21" barreled Rem 700 LSS chambered in 375RUM 350gr TTSX or Woodleigh @ 2450fps should fit the bill or you can down load it to equal low end 375 H&H or Ruger loads and when you feel like reaching out load it with 260gr Accubonds @ 3020fps and reach out to 600 yards.
Do you have any good hunting loads for .375 H&H with 300 grain or 280 grain. I am looking for most accurate recipe.
45-70 vs 300win mag
observations regarding the 300 Magnums and the 45-70 are a classic example of what is wrong with kinetic energy generation as a measure of effectiveness. The kinetic energy equation squares velocity but does not square bullet weight, thereby "prejudicing" the results towards those calibers that drive relatively light bullets to relatively high velocities. However, when one calculates power by giving equal value to velocity and bullet weight, as in the momentum measurement, the results are totally different. For the sake of this discussion, lets use modern 45-70 ballistics. As reflected by one of our loadings, the 45-70 can drive a 415-grainer to 1850-fps (from a Marlin lever-gun), producing 3150 ft/lbs of kinetic energy and 110 lbs of momentum. The 300 Winchester Magnum drives a 180-grainer to about 3085-fps for 3800 ft/lbs of kinetic energy and 79 lbs of momentum. It now starts to become clear that the manner of measurement tends to determine the outcome. Also, with the various 30 caliber guns it is essential to use expanding bullets in order to effect a clean and quick kill, whereas with the 45-70 bullet diameter is so substantial that expansion is not required to kill cleanly. When one goes to non-expanding bullets, the penetration depth achieved is much greater than can be achieved with any expanding bullet from any caliber. Indeed, about the most penetration that can be achieved in wet newspapers (a common test medium) with premium expanding bullets in any caliber is about 18-inches. With the 45-70 and proper hard-cast bullets, penetration depth can range anywhere from 36-inches with the lighter castings to 70-inches with the heaviest.#
High velocity guns shine where long-range shooting is required. However, when the game is extremely tough the various 300 Magnums leave much to be desired, tending to over-expand and invariably producing shallow penetration channels.#
A properly loaded 45-70 will shoot lengthwise through anything in North America, something the various high velocity calibers simply cannot do or even come close to.
GCI Ballistics
side note; the other hard hitter to the 45-70 is/was the Sharps 50-90 (Big 50) with a Black powder cartridge and is supposedly convertible to smokeless and can/could toss around close to 700 grain round. Unknown if a Sharps 50-90 is available and i am sure the brass is very limited and probably hand loads or custom only.
observations regarding the 300 Magnums and the 45-70 are a classic example of what is wrong with kinetic energy generation as a measure of effectiveness. The kinetic energy equation squares velocity but does not square bullet weight, thereby "prejudicing" the results towards those calibers that drive relatively light bullets to relatively high velocities. However, when one calculates power by giving equal value to velocity and bullet weight, as in the momentum measurement, the results are totally different. For the sake of this discussion, lets use modern 45-70 ballistics. As reflected by one of our loadings, the 45-70 can drive a 415-grainer to 1850-fps (from a Marlin lever-gun), producing 3150 ft/lbs of kinetic energy and 110 lbs of momentum. The 300 Winchester Magnum drives a 180-grainer to about 3085-fps for 3800 ft/lbs of kinetic energy and 79 lbs of momentum. It now starts to become clear that the manner of measurement tends to determine the outcome. Also, with the various 30 caliber guns it is essential to use expanding bullets in order to effect a clean and quick kill, whereas with the 45-70 bullet diameter is so substantial that expansion is not required to kill cleanly. When one goes to non-expanding bullets, the penetration depth achieved is much greater than can be achieved with any expanding bullet from any caliber. Indeed, about the most penetration that can be achieved in wet newspapers (a common test medium) with premium expanding bullets in any caliber is about 18-inches. With the 45-70 and proper hard-cast bullets, penetration depth can range anywhere from 36-inches with the lighter castings to 70-inches with the heaviest.#
High velocity guns shine where long-range shooting is required. However, when the game is extremely tough the various 300 Magnums leave much to be desired, tending to over-expand and invariably producing shallow penetration channels.#
A properly loaded 45-70 will shoot lengthwise through anything in North America, something the various high velocity calibers simply cannot do or even come close to.
GCI Ballistics
side note; the other hard hitter to the 45-70 is/was the Sharps 50-90 (Big 50) with a Black powder cartridge and is supposedly convertible to smokeless and can/could toss around close to 700 grain round. Unknown if a Sharps 50-90 is available and i am sure the brass is very limited and probably hand loads or custom only.
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- Location
- Southern Vancouver Island
Good one fer sure.
Always had good results with the larger caliber rifles using heavy cast bullets at 22 LR rimfire velocities. The 45-70 along with the .450 Marlin, .458 Win and .45 Colt are rather efficient dumpers of hefty critters inside of 80 yds with well placed shots on 'em when they're not aware of yer presence. I really like the 9.3's & .375's as well when using cast boolits of weights from 270-300 gr. at similar speeds. Fook, they dig deep and bust bone well along the way.
I'm now workin' with the rifled 12 bore for primo knock down of big critters in close. I reckon my loads from my 3 in 12ga rifled guns will be more than ample for
the job when tossing 825 gr Paradox type bombs at 1050 fps. T'will be fun.
De Savage 212 with 2.5x Weaver.
De Rem 870 with Hastings barrel & Bushnell Holo Sight.
De 825 gr boolit next to my .375 Win load.
