Swiss and Swede on EE

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I wonder why the Russian felt the need to drop the hundreds of thousands of S&W .44 Calbre Wheelguns before going to war with Japan, Germany, and others?

Strange that they did not re-issue those .44's for WW1 as their size and knockdown power is so awesome?

I wonder why the US military felt the need to get rid of all those fantastic .45 SAA Colts and .45 acp Colt 1911's for a European designed small calibre handgun? Come to think about it why did they even make and issue those hundreds of thousand .38 S&W calibre revolvers during and after WW2 if they are are of no practical wartime use?

Strange, I must be missing something when looking at the big picture.

I didn't realize Elmer fought during WW2 or Korea with his Six Guns.
 
dingus said:
yes and a 45 colt Black powder load can go thru a lot more 1 inch pine boards than a 7.5 swiss I think its 10 or 12 boards 1 inch thick with a 1 inch gap between them.
I have done tests with 44 sp SWC keith 250 gr lead bullets they have great penetration using 2400 smokeless loads I have had and shot plenty of 7.5s and they just don't compare.
Ive bought and shot almost every antique handgun out there in 12 years and only have a few 8mm guns the rest are all 45 and 44 caliber. But that's just me if you like 7.5s buy a 7.5 but trying to say there better at killing than a 45 or 44 cal bullet is not what I have seen.
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a 265 grain projectile going 600-700 fps (as in 455 Webley) is a more effective penetrator than a 100 grain projectile going 1100 fps (as in a 7.62 mm Nagant) ?
 
I've a 32-20, awesome round. Bats out of it's league IMO.
Should I take it deer hunting? Do you think that would be ethical?
Or perhaps a 38-40 or perhaps a 44-40 might be better, hmmm...why is that?
Because they have more stopping power. Now we are down to brass tacks. Not..."I shot lots of targets in the Forces" or " The Russians did fine with it "
32-20 just doesn't have the same power.
You can't compare a 32-20 to most of the bigger bored rounds...it's not got the poop to do it right.
And I'm equating the 32-20 to the 7.5 ( 8mm Lebel is about the same ).
If my life depends on it, the big bore will win out. Medium bores like the 9's open up a whole new argument of more rounds vs stopping power. ..'nother debate there
IMO of course.
But the 32-20 is an awful round to depend on to get it right, lots better out there
 
tokguy said:
I've a 32-20, awesome round. Bats out of it's league IMO.
Should I take it deer hunting? Do you think that would be ethical?
Or perhaps a 38-40 or perhaps a 44-40 might be better, hmmm...why is that?
Because they have more stopping power. Now we are down to brass tacks. Not..."I shot lots of targets in the Forces" or " The Russians did fine with it "
32-20 just doesn't have the same power.
You can't compare a 32-20 to most of the bigger bored rounds...it's not got the poop to do it right.
And I'm equating the 32-20 to the 7.5 ( 8mm Lebel is about the same ).
If my life depends on it, the big bore will win out. Medium bores like the 9's open up a whole new argument of more rounds vs stopping power. ..'nother her debate there
IMO of course.
But the 32-20 is an awful round to depend on to get it right, lots better out there
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What about a 30 Carbine? You know, I can load 32-20 that actually exceeds 30 Carbine power levels. If you stick a 32-20 in a 30 Carbine die, they are virtually identical, save the rim. Of course, I wouldn't fire such a load out of any antique... but my point is that 32 calibre can be quite effective. Apparently the new 327 Magnum is a real powerhouse.

Nothing is black and white my friend.

For the record, I'm a big fan of 32-20... and it really sings with handloading.
 
dingus said:
yes and a 45 colt Black powder load can go thru a lot more 1 inch pine boards than a 7.5 swiss I think its 8 boards 1 inch thick with a 1 inch gap between them.
I have done tests with 44 sp SWC keith 250 gr lead bullets they have great penetration using 2400 smokeless loads I have had and shot plenty of 7.5s and they just don't compare.
Ive bought and shot almost every antique handgun out there in 12 years and only have a few 8mm guns the rest are all 45 and 44 caliber. But that's just me if you like 7.5s buy a 7.5 but trying to say there better at killing than a 45 or 44 cal bullet is not what I have seen.

In the USA where a lot of guys can hunt with handguns there mainly using 44 and 45 caliber guns as they have the shock power to keep and big animal down.
If you read Elmer keith book SIX GUNS he talks a lot about penetration and hunting with a handgun one of his favorites is the 44 sp. Keith knew his stuff to more than any of us here I would guess.
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Right... And he shot that deer (iirc) at 600 yards.
I love Keith's writing but let's face it he was a blow hard and it wasn't based in reality.

Ps. Why are you so obsessed with killing? Are your posts based in reality? Do you hunt with antique revolvers? Have you ever killed defensively anything with an old sixgun?
 
The Kurgan said:
What about a 30 Carbine? You know, I can load 32-20 that actually exceeds 30 Carbine power levels. If you stick a 32-20 in a 30 Carbine die, they are virtually identical, save the rim. Of course, I wouldn't fire such a load out of any antique... but my point is that 32 calibre can be quite effective. Apparently the new 327 Magnum is a real powerhouse.

Nothing is black and white my friend.

For the record, I'm a big fan of 32-20... and it really sings with handloading.
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Hunting deer with a 30 carbine? Been there, done that ( another place and another time ). It's still not ethical, man.
I recall a thread on someone wanting to hunt deer with the 32-20...it ended with almost unanimous distain.
And Elmer Keith only developed the 357 magnum and the 44 magnum...obviously a blowhard, lol
 
Can I just say, that aside from the amusement, this thread has been quite informative. It has also sealed my belief that there is "no better" calibre, but there are certainly better and more accurate antique revolvers. I couldn't care less if it takes me 5 seconds or 10 seconds to load them. I am quite fast BTW.

While we were all bickering and bantering... I ran a few handloads in my gun room.

I have several 32-20 cases resized in a 30 Carbine die, beautiful 110 grain lead flat point round nose bullets (w/ gas check) courtesy of Jethunter, and a ton of IMR 4227.

These new loads will likely exceed 2200 fps (I am planning a chrono day with my pal), and I look forward to the devastating results out of my cherished Martini 310 Cadet.

I also ran a few hotter loads for my Swiss 1882 using 4 grains of Trail Boss... pretty much the max an uncut 32-20 case can hold with a 100 grain deep seated lead wadcutter. These should move well north of 1000 fps, and I suspect they well penetrate a few pine Boards!

Have a good night.
 
I don't shoot webley 455s I don't like the long pointed slow bullets all my bush packing antique handguns are set up to shoot 45 schofield or 44 Sp or some in 45 acp takeing full advantage of the chambers length that toped with a SWC bullets doing 800 Fps they do just fine. my original schofields can shoot 4 inch groups off a rest at 45 yds with a 250 gr swc doing 800 fps that's a great killing round and its antique. I have guns that can shoot 45 schofield at 1100 FPS to but that's abit unfair to this argument as they have some modern steel parts.
I think our reasons for buying using antique handguns must be different , I have mine mainly for bush packing in case I run into a predator and I like target shooting to. so I want the accurate round and 44 sp is very accurate I don't shoot 44 Russian much as 44 sp is a much better round.
45 schofield is just as good loaded right and its a pre 1898 made cartridge.

a 45 colt with 40 grs of black powder and a 250 gr bullet will do 900 fps and kill a bull with one shot to the skull. theres also the shock value of the bigger bullet to.
For myself and my use I will stick to my bigger bullets as unlike the small calibers that are wicked wounding weapons the last thing I want to do is wound anything.

Again nothing wrong with the 7.5 swiss but for myself and most of the antique bush packers in Canada they like want the 41 and 44 and 45 cal guns .
 
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tokguy said:
Hunting deer with a 30 carbine? Been there, done that ( another place and another time ). It's still not ethical, man.
I recall a thread on someone wanting to hunt deer with the 32-20...it ended with almost unanimous distain.
And Elmer Keith only developed the 357 magnum and the 44 magnum...obviously a blowhard, lol
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with a FMJ... of course unethical! And, there are MUCH MUCH better calibres for the job... and I just happen to really love 30-30 and 44-40.
 
Deuce-deuce said:
Right... And he shot that deer (iirc) at 600 yards.
I love Keith's writing but let's face it he was a blow hard and it wasn't based in reality.

Ps. Why are you so obsessed with killing? Are your posts based in reality? Do you hunt with antique revolvers? Have you ever killed defensively anything with an old sixgun?
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Yeah, that troubled me as well. Thankfully, it calmed down after my earlier warning.

I don't hunt with any antiques (revolver), and I wouldn't even if it were legal. An antique Webley couldn't hit the broad side of a barn after 10 yards. There are many better tools for the job.
 
The Kurgan said:
with a FMJ... of course unethical! And, there are MUCH MUCH better calibres for the job... and I just happen to really love 30-30 and 44-40.
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You said FMJ, not I.
Apparently the 30 carbine can be reloaded, with SP ammo.
Don't put input from you and attribute it to me, please and thank you
 
He's not a Blowhard and with likely be slightly embarassed...but I'm doing it anyhow.
Ever notice Dingus's trader rating? How do you suppose he got that? He sees LOTS of antiques, I wish I'd 'seen' ( just seen, that's all) the antiques he's 'owned'.
I'm going to put forth that his opinion is worth way more than mine, or a few others here.
Enough said, enjoy your guns guys...bedtime here
 
The Kurgan said:
Yeah, that troubled me as well. Thankfully, it calmed down after my earlier warning.

I don't hunt with any antiques (revolver), and I wouldn't even if it were legal. An antique Webley couldn't hit the broad side of a barn after 10 yards. There are many better tools for the job.
Click to expand...

I bush pack with my antiques when im walking my dogs on crown land so I want the best I can have (just in case) I don't hunt with my antique handguns tho.
Theres a few things around here that would like to sit on you and peel the flesh off your arms while you scream for help so that's why if push came to shove I want something that can kill ! I mainly target shoot theses days tho and that's where I like using my H pieper. and French 1892s . but the bigger calibers are just more fun to shoot and with full BP loads there even more fun to shoot.
 
Oh my gosh... "Bush packing" an antique for animal defense? Here I'll end this argument right now. Get a 12 gauge. More killing power. These old revolvers are one of the worst tools I can imagine for bear defence... But hey I'm the kind of guy that uses a shovel to dig and a hammer to drive nails not vice versa.

If some of you guys can't see what I'm saying about old Elmer being a blow hard I have my doubts you've read his books... Let's see, 600 yard deer with a hand gun, shooting things out of the air, and my favourite "the .38spl is no good". The old .38 spl was the round of choice for many a police department for many a year. almost 100 and killed many a bad guy in that time.
 
tokguy said:
I've a 32-20, awesome round. Bats out of it's league IMO.
Should I take it deer hunting? Do you think that would be ethical?
Or perhaps a 38-40 or perhaps a 44-40 might be better, hmmm...why is that?
Because they have more stopping power. Now we are down to brass tacks. Not..."I shot lots of targets in the Forces" or " The Russians did fine with it "
32-20 just doesn't have the same power.
You can't compare a 32-20 to most of the bigger bored rounds...it's not got the poop to do it right.
And I'm equating the 32-20 to the 7.5 ( 8mm Lebel is about the same ).
If my life depends on it, the big bore will win out. Medium bores like the 9's open up a whole new argument of more rounds vs stopping power. ..'nother debate there
IMO of course.
But the 32-20 is an awful round to depend on to get it right, lots better out there
Click to expand...

LOL, I guess you never served your country or went into a warzone or was shot at or actually shot (7.62x39mm)?

I know someone very well who did and was (talking in the third person).

BTW, why don't you just think about them and then answer these repeated but unanswered questions, even just to yourself, you don't have to do it here, I'm not out to embarrass anybody -

I wonder why the Russian felt the need to drop the hundreds of thousands of S&W .44 Calbre Wheelguns before going to war with Japan, Germany, and others?

Strange that they did not re-issue those .44's for WW1 as their size and knockdown power is so awesome?

I wonder why the US military felt the need to get rid of all those fantastic .45 SAA Colts and .45 acp Colt 1911's for a European designed small calibre handgun? Come to think about it why did they even make and issue those hundreds of thousand .38 S&W calibre revolvers during and after WW2 if they are are of no practical wartime use?

I didn't realize Elmer fought in any wartime battles, especially during WW2 or Korea with his Six Guns, I wonder why as some think he is the expert on the matter of combat effective handguns rather than what has been developed after the loss of countless lives in battle?

BTW, even though you may think otherwise from my postings in this thread, I actually like and am very fond of large calibre handguns, but also know from initial military training by extensive combat experienced vets and first hand experience (unlike some who shall remain unnamed) the limitations of the average man/soldier and his weapon in a stressful situation were others are trying their utmost to kill or take you out of the fight first and were every second and opportunity counts.

Try to think about the above and reason to yourself why the militaries and police forces of the world with their vast user knowledge from first hand combat experience moved away from large calibre service issue handguns to smaller calibre ones, rather than just quote from Elmer or others and think you are right.
 
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