Swiss Arms Over The Beach Shooting UPDATE, Final Results and Conclusions Post #108

Embedded for ya ;).[/QUOTE]

Thanks, one of these days I'll figure out how to do that. :)

Notice the armor he is wearing during the test? They know that catastrophic failure is very likely and can cause serious injury.
There is absolutely no reason for any of us to do this to our rifles. You risk your rifle and your safety for nothing other than a cool video to post. There is nothing to be gained and no practical purpose for it. We are not navy seals and do not get free rifles.
If you insist on doing it then do what Steve did and have people standing by to assist you medically if needed.
Better yet just give me your rifle and I'll find you a good link to a youtube video of what you are planning to try. ;)
 
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Don't get me wrong I love watching these vids and am all for it if a guy wants to risk his rifle but I would hate to hear about some guy who didn't know any better taking out his AR and ending up in the hospital after it explodes in his face.
When in doubt do your research and make sure it's safe to do this with your rifle. Keep in mind that even rifles like the Swiss, XCR, etc that are tested by the manufacturer to do this may still fail during this test resulting in serious injury and/or destruction of the rifle. You are firing with a known barrel obstruction.
 
vagrant said:
While it might work, its extremely bad for your rifle. They're a great chance you but ring bulge in your barrel. HK tech told us that it can be done with the 416, but if you do, you'll have to change the barrel afterward, it was a SEAL demand that it shoots after getting out of water, the bulging of the barrel is viable for them. Water will want to pass over your bullet in the barrel and since it can be compressed, it will push on the barrel bulging it. Over the beach testing is a "destructive" test, its does'nt need to blow up the rifle to be destructive, just use it prematurely. Don't be suprise if your velocity and accuracy s gone down. I would never do this with any of my firearms
Click to expand...

I wanted to wait until I got everything back to answer your post:

So I got my Rifle back today, with the new barrel attached and the old 1 in 7" twist barrel included, after examining the barrel I did a write up for our facebook page:

Swiss Arms PE-90 "Over The Beach Test" Final Results and Conclusions

A few months ago, I came to the conclusion I wanted to switch my well used (8000+ rounds fired) PE-90 barrel from a 1in7" twist to a 1in10. Since I knew the 1in7 had near 8,000 rounds through it, and I would be getting a brand new 1in10, I decided the 1in7 was expendable. This gave me a "spare" barrel to attempt a destructive test I had yet to see performed with a SAN rifle, and have desired to try for several years; an Over The Beach test.

I went out to the San Juan River, and after briefing 2 partners on the safety procedure, prepared for the test.

Test procedure:

-Submerge loaded and chambered rifle, and allow bubbles to stop rising

-Remove rifle from water and fire, allowing no more than 2 seconds for the rifle to drain


Once I had made my way hip deep into the (Mid April cold) river. I submerged the rifle and waited for all the bubbles to stop coming out. This actually took about 15 seconds and a bit of shaking. I then pulled the rifle out of the water and fired of a 5 round magazine a fare distance from my face, the rifle functioned reliably.This gave me some confidence, and I started raising, and taking aim with the rifle, bringing it closer to my face and head. I continued until I was freezing cold, and shriveled ;) (15 more rounds) All rounds fired reliably.

I then fired 20 rounds on a 12"x12" pizza box at about 50m to check accuracy and noticed it was not the same. Out of 5 rounds offhand I only hit the pizza box 3 times. Then I moved to 25m and from a make shift rest hit the box about 13 out of the remaining 15 rounds. This was shooting some Norinco 55gr ammo that had key holed out of my barrel in the past due to inconsistent bullet diameter, and after the test they were key holing even more consistently than before. When I got home, I tried 10 rounds of AE 55gr, and scored a grapefruit sized group off hand at 50m. So it shot the AE 55gr much better, but the bore was obviously still damaged, and accuracy gone.

I sent the rifle off to the gunsmith to have the new barrel put on, and to examine the old one. He concluded that the barrel was damaged by the OVB test and nearly shot out (This surprised me a bit). At the muzzle end there was apparently very little rifling left, he suggested excessive low quality ammo being fired may be the cause of this. We also discussed at length the dangers of performing such a test. There's a great chance of causing whats sometimes referred to as ring bulge in your barrel (as alluded to by VAGRANT above). He explained it quite well, what happens when a bullet travels down the barrel is the water in front of the bullet can't compress like air does, and so some of that water wants to pass over the bullet. Since the water can't compress, the pressure build up, bulges the barrel. This is why it is considered a destructive test ;) To pass the test, the rifle simply needs to keep working, accuracy will probably be gone along with full velocity, and continued use of the barrel. But if it functions, it passes the test. Regardless of what platform it's done with, this is an extremely dangerous and destructive test and what they don't show you in the HK416 OVB video, is that you will likely need to replace the barrel due to these issues. I was contacted by another guy who tested some SG551's with 14" barrels for the RCMP and during an OVB test just like mine, they blew one of them up at the barrel. Knowing full well the destructive capabilities of this test, I would not have performed it had I not had a "spare" barrel to try it on.

I have included some pictures of the visible cracks on the outside of the barrel, that clearly show where the bulge occurred. These pictures of the cracks in the barrel, combined with someone in the know informing me they blew up a 551 doing this test, should be more than enough to show the true destructive nature of this test, and convince anyone who may be thinking of trying this with there rifle, that it's not a good idea.

Result: PE-90 gets passed the OVB test reliably

Conclusions: Damaged Barrel. Ring Bulge. Lost Velocity and Accuracy. Do not try this with a barrel or gun your not willing to replace or blow up.

- Steve

Red arrows point to bulge cracks below

Cracks_zps3da5ad63.jpg


and below without the arrows

IMAG0950_zps89ba00cd.jpg


Best pic I could get of the bulge inside the bore.

IMAG0955_zpsb9da3626.jpg
 
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Steve Janes said:
I wanted to wait until I got everything back to answer your post:

So I got my Rifle back today, with the new barrel attached and the old 1 in 7" twist barrel included, after examining the barrel I did a write up for our facebook page:

Swiss Arms PE-90 "Over The Beach Test" Final Results and Conclusions

A few months ago, I came to the conclusion I wanted to switch my well used (8000+ rounds fired) PE-90 barrel from a 1in7" twist to a 1in10. Since I knew the 1in7 had near 8,000 rounds through it, and I would be getting a brand new 1in10, I decided the 1in7 was expendable. This gave me a "spare" barrel to attempt a destructive test I had yet to see performed with a SAN rifle, and have desired to try for several years; an Over The Beach test.

I went out to the San Juan River, and after briefing 2 partners on the safety procedure, prepared for the test.

Test procedure:

-Submerge loaded and chambered rifle, and allow bubbles to stop rising

-Remove rifle from water and fire, allowing no more than 2 seconds for the rifle to drain


Once I had made my way hip deep into the (Mid April cold) river. I submerged the rifle and waited for all the bubbles to stop coming out. This actually took about 15 seconds and a bit of shaking. I then pulled the rifle out of the water and fired of a 5 round magazine a fare distance from my face, the rifle functioned reliably.This gave me some confidence, and I started raising, and taking aim with the rifle, bringing it closer to my face and head. I continued until I was freezing cold, and shriveled ;) (15 more rounds) All rounds fired reliably.

I then fired 20 rounds on a 12"x12" pizza box at about 50m to check accuracy and noticed it was not the same. Out of 5 rounds offhand I only hit the pizza box 3 times. Then I moved to 25m and from a make shift rest hit the box about 13 out of the remaining 15 rounds. This was shooting some Norinco 55gr ammo that had key holed out of my barrel in the past due to inconsistent bullet diameter, and after the test they were key holing even more consistently than before. When I got home, I tried 10 rounds of AE 55gr, and scored a grapefruit sized group off hand at 50m. So it shot the AE 55gr much better, but the bore was obviously still damaged, and accuracy gone.

I sent the rifle off to the gunsmith to have the new barrel put on, and to examine the old one. He concluded that the barrel was damaged by the OVB test and nearly shot out (This surprised me a bit). At the muzzle end there was apparently very little rifling left, he suggested excessive low quality ammo being fired may be the cause of this. We also discussed at length the dangers of performing such a test. There's a great chance of causing whats sometimes referred to as ring bulge in your barrel (as alluded to by VAGRANT above). He explained it quite well, what happens when a bullet travels down the barrel is the water in front of the bullet can't compress like air does, and so some of that water wants to pass over the bullet. Since the water can't compress, the pressure build up, bulges the barrel. This is why it is considered a destructive test ;) To pass the test, the rifle simply needs to keep working, accuracy will probably be gone along with full velocity, and continued use of the barrel. But if it functions, it passes the test. Regardless of what platform it's done with, this is an extremely dangerous and destructive test and what they don't show you in the HK416 OVB video, is that you will likely need to replace the barrel due to these issues. I was contacted by another guy who tested some SG551's with 14" barrels for the RCMP and during an OVB test just like mine, they blew one of them up at the barrel. Knowing full well the destructive capabilities of this test, I would not have performed it had I not had a "spare" barrel to try it on.

I have included some pictures of the visible cracks on the outside of the barrel, that clearly show where the bulge occurred. These pictures of the cracks in the barrel, combined with someone in the know informing me they blew up a 551 doing this test, should be more than enough to show the true destructive nature of this test, and convince anyone who may be thinking of trying this with there rifle, that it's not a good idea.

Result: PE-90 gets passed the OVB test reliably

Conclusions: Damaged Barrel. Ring Bulge. Lost Velocity and Accuracy. Do not try this with a barrel or gun your not willing to replace or blow up.

- Steve

Red arrows point to bulge cracks below

Cracks_zps3da5ad63.jpg


and below without the arrows

IMAG0950_zps89ba00cd.jpg


Best pic I could get of the bulge inside the bore.

IMAG0955_zpsb9da3626.jpg
Click to expand...

Interesting. Thank you for the truthful report.
 
boss351cleveland said:
How could a barrel be shot out at 8000 rounds ? i was under the impression that the barrel life for a swiss arms was 30,000 rounds ?
Click to expand...

I just got on here to ask the same question.

What were the brands and round counts of the low quality ammo you mention? I'm aware this has shot Norinco, any Wolf steel case or other lower quality brands?

Looks like the undersized Norinco projectiles damaging barrels argument is turning out to be correct. AE .223 being $400/1000 and Norinco being $450/1600 that leaves a price difference of $950 at 8000 rounds. For the difference in $950 worth of ammo I guess it almost paid for the new barrel/install. However the next question would be if you only shot higher grade ammo would the barrel have shot out so soon?

You should have by factory standards $10K worth of ammo through that barrel prior to shooting out.
 
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loki_81 said:
I just got on here to ask the same question.

What were the brands and round counts of the low quality ammo you mention? I'm aware this has shot Norinco, any Wolf steel case or other lower quality brands?

Looks like the undersized Norinco projectiles damaging barrels argument is turning out to be correct. AE .223 being $400/1000 and Norinco being $450/1600 that leaves a price difference of $950 at 8000 rounds. For the difference in $950 worth of ammo I guess it almost paid for the new barrel/install. However the next question would be if you only shot higher grade ammo would the barrel have shot out so soon?

You should have by factory standards $10K worth of ammo through that barrel prior to shooting out.
Click to expand...

The expectation is that it had more to do with the undersized Norinco projectiles, than just low quality ammo, I'd say over 6000, possibly even closer to 7000 of the 8000 were Norinco yellow box. Keep in mind, I have no idea how many rounds the previous 2-3 owners put through it, or how they treated it.

No, if I had of shot higher quality ammo, we do not suspect this would have happened. While some believe shooting 55gr ammo through a 1in7" twist can wear a barrel out several thousand rounds faster than say a 1in9, we believe the undersized projectiles caused the rapid throat erosion and barrel wear.
 
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Steve, correct me if I'm wrong, but are the cracks you took the photo of on the outside of your flash hider casing? Was the barrel threaded under that area? I'm not real familiar with the Swiss FH, but I think I see the lock washer there.
 
Clobbersauras said:
Steve, correct me if I'm wrong, but are the cracks you took the photo of on the outside of your flash hider casing? Was the barrel threaded under that area? I'm not real familiar with the Swiss FH, but I think I see the lock washer there.
Click to expand...

Yes the cracks are on the flash hider and the barrel itself. No the barrel is not threaded under this area, there is rifling underneath these cracks (bulge) and it sure doesn't look like normal rifling anymore. It appears to be about an inch or two in length, but hard to tell.
 
Steve Janes said:
Yes the cracks are on the flash hider and the barrel itself. No the barrel is not threaded under this area, there is rifling underneath these cracks (bulge) and it sure doesn't look like normal rifling anymore. It appears to be about an inch or two in length, but hard to tell.
Click to expand...

I see, very interesting thread. Thanks for posting.
 
boss351cleveland said:
How could a barrel be shot out at 8000 rounds ? i was under the impression that the barrel life for a swiss arms was 30,000 rounds ?
Click to expand...

That's what MFS and Norinco ammo does to your barrel. Save a little now, pay a lot later.


Steve, Just wondering if you replaced your barrel with another SA barrel but just with 1:10 this time or if you had a custom made?

Do you think a gunsmith could figure out a way to build a barrel to eliminate the poi shift when going from bipod to shooting off the mag?
Or figure a way to build a barrel that would allow a free float forend to be mounted. I know a piston operated rifle can't truly be floated like a bolt gun but just something that would allow bipod use without it putting pressure on the end of the barrel.
I've see the Troy battle rail system but haven't seen anything in Canada about it being available to us and I don't want to add a bunch of weight to the rifle. I don't need a bunch of rails just something to support the forend.
I noticed with mine the other day that I get a 5 inch poi shift at 100yds, so far it is the only downside to the rifle and I know it happens with other rifles but I've never experience this much poi shift. On the + side I was on my way to a 5 shot cloverleaf group at 100yds but got a flier that landed 3 inches to the left of the cluster, probably my error and the AE 55gr. Was getting around 2900fps with that from the 20 inch barrel. I'm looking forward to trying some good ammo in it and also putting together some handloads for it.
 
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