T2 Garand - Part 1

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polaris said:
here is the answer from Hauck:



Translated in essence:

The Garand rifles were imported as completed rifles from Italy into Germany, were they were proofed, and exported back to Italy.
This can be seen from the laser etched proof mark.

Would I have manufactured, built or changed a barrel/action or if I would have assembled the weapon (I assembled quite a few Garand rifles), the proof mark would be etched without IT.

These weapons went through my accountability (books) only, but not through my workshop.


What do you think?

What a coincident that he built 120 Garands from parts at the exact same time?
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Wouldn't the last country that touched the firearm be listed last, not first? I'm not up to speed on the UN marking schemes yet.
IT would be Italy
DE Germany
BG? Bulgaria? Or does it follow German proof years and mean 16?
image_zpsreez47ue.jpeg

And Italy doesn't have a proofing house? They make tons of firearms for export.
 
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I am not knowledgeable in the field of proof markings, but I have a hard time to believe his story.

I answered his message and asked for more clarification, especially how he could put his good name (according to information from a German firearms forum, he is well known for quality work) on this garbage, lets see if he writes back.
 
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polaris said:
here is the answer from Hauck:



Translated in essence:

The Garand rifles were imported as completed rifles from Italy into Germany, were they were proofed, and exported back to Italy.
This can be seen from the laser etched proof mark.

Would I have manufactured, built or changed a barrel/action or if I would have assembled the weapon (I assembled quite a few Garand rifles), the proof mark would be etched without IT.

These weapons went through my accountability (books) only, but not through my workshop.


What do you think?

What a coincident that he built 120 Garands from parts at the exact same time?
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I would call BS on this one. Firstly, Italy has its own very well established proof houses...why would you want to incur the cost and paperwork of shipping 120 rifles for proofing to another country? Secondly these are not T2 rifles, they are parts guns, there is photographic evidence to this fact. Lastly they are substandard quality and perhaps potentially dangerous to shoot. In short, there is zero possibility these rifles are arsenal rebuilds or authentic Tipo 2 conversions.

The proof mark BG is for 2016. The shield is the Cologne proof house. It would be interesting for someone who wants to really dig deep to contact the proof house with their serial number and actually see if the rifle was submitted for proofing.

BTW, they can be reached:

Beschussamt Köln in NRW LBME
Hugo-Eckener-Str. 14
50829 Köln

attn: Christof Menzenbach or Joachim Mollen

email: beschussamt@lbme-k.nrw.de

I suspect a certain German gunsmith received a cautionary phone call from a certain gun importer in Ont. to ensure they had their stories "aligned".
 
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Thanks to r_taylor, Hitzy, all who've taken the initiative to raise red flags about these rifles.

I find myself drawn to 'vintage' (aka old, or at least old-tech) firearms the older I get, and these Garands intrigued me.... but I'm glad I passed, iron clad guarantee or not. Way too much uncertainty and drama.

Thanks again for all the info.
 
Hitzy said:
Where did you first hear about them though? To place that first order, which got you on their email list?
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CGN originally. My Garand is not as bad as others have indicated. No "free float" barrel, no grinding on the front of the bolt, unfortunately the right lug is welded and ground. I would like to keep it and shoot it confidently, I would also like a explanation from the seller.
 
call2arms said:
CGN originally. My Garand is not as bad as others have indicated. No "free float" barrel, no grinding on the front of the bolt, unfortunately the right lug is welded and ground. I would like to keep it and shoot it confidently, I would also like a explanation from the seller.
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Do not keep that rifle! The rear bolt lugs are the only thing that holds the bolt in battery while you fire it! These are the important sides of the lugs. If they are damaged, they can shear off and all that pressure will come flying back into your face! It is only a matter of time before they do it as well. Shooting these rifles is like playing Russian Roulette!!!

Send it back and wait for the next "Properly built" one to come up on the EE. There are a few great guys on here that build them and sell them for way less than you are out for this ticking bomb from Marstar! If I recall correctly, they can be bought on the EE in excellent condition for about $1400 all in!!!!

Ian
 
Herr Hauck's letter is hilarious. He concludes with "friendly greetings" His "friendly greetings" could include a bolt to the head.
 
firstson said:
Marstar is not open to the general public. They sell to the public via internet or phone sales. So how is anyone to inspect before purchasing.
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If an item cannot be personally inspected prior to purchase ; then it is best to keep your cash in your pocket....better safe than sorry .
 
Squinty said:
Herr Hauck's letter is hilarious. He concludes with "friendly greetings" His "friendly greetings" could include a bolt to the head.
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Maybe he is the Sgt. Shultz of the firearm world....I see nothing , I hear nothing , I know nothing....lol
 
Smitsauce said:
Do not keep that rifle! The rear bolt lugs are the only thing that holds the bolt in battery while you fire it! These are the important sides of the lugs. If they are damaged, they can shear off and all that pressure will come flying back into your face! It is only a matter of time before they do it as well. Shooting these rifles is like playing Russian Roulette!!!

Send it back and wait for the next "Properly built" one to come up on the EE. There are a few great guys on here that build them and sell them for way less than you are out for this ticking bomb from Marstar! If I recall correctly, they can be bought on the EE in excellent condition for about $1400 all in!!!!

Ian
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Or, from what I've read on this site and investigated elsewhere, there are the James River Garands. Essentially new rifles available from a few site sponsors.

They don't have the pedigree of vintage milsurps, but a buyer can be confident about the way they've been put together.

And priced not far off from these T2s.
 
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Smitsauce said:
Do not keep that rifle! The rear bolt lugs are the only thing that holds the bolt in battery while you fire it! These are the important sides of the lugs. If they are damaged, they can shear off and all that pressure will come flying back into your face! It is only a matter of time before they do it as well. Shooting these rifles is like playing Russian Roulette!!!

Send it back and wait for the next "Properly built" one to come up on the EE. There are a few great guys on here that build them and sell them for way less than you are out for this ticking bomb from Marstar! If I recall correctly, they can be bought on the EE in excellent condition for about $1400 all in!!!!

Ian
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Great ...and safe advice. Welding anneals/softens the metal. Grinding will cut thru the hardened surface of the lugs to the softer metal below.

I'd like to hear a report from someone who has one of these w/o welded or ground bolt lugs and how a set of .308 Win headspace gauges ran in it.

I suspect that one of the reasons why bolt lugs were ground and welded was to try to get the bolts to align with the breach ring/barrel face which I suspect was out of spec on these barrels of unknown provenance. I've built dozens of Garands, incl 5 with bona-fide surplus Italian Tipo 2 parts, and there was never a problem with getting correct bolt alignment and proper headspacing with an in-spec military or commercial barrel.
 
call2arms said:
CGN originally. My Garand is not as bad as others have indicated. No "free float" barrel, no grinding on the front of the bolt, unfortunately the right lug is welded and ground. I would like to keep it and shoot it confidently, I would also like a explanation from the seller.
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You can always go and get a second opinion from a reputable gunsmith, but I can guarantee they will tell you the bolt is trash due to the welding on the lug...
A new bolt is $100, but that likely won't solve the problem as the welding/grinding was done to fix some other issue with the rifle.
I'm sure someone can recommend a Garand Smith you can call/email some pics to.... Casey at Tacord comes to mind, I'm sure there are others. A mod on here is a retired Smith but may want to stay out of the serious comments due to vendor/CGN relationship.
 
Hitzy said:
Grab your reading glasses John, there are a few dozen questions asked here that you seem to be avoiding.
Are you confident enough to shoot a battle pack through that M1 above on video for us, to prove how safe and durable those welded bolt lugs are? It's being returned to you it seems due to some minor issues and non-disclosures in your advertisement. I'm sure we can get you the serial number of THAT rifle and the RMA number just to make sure it gets to you.....we all look forward to the video of you shooting it.
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He usually doesn't answer questions , just makes bold condescending statements
I think in an other life he was a politician :rolleyes:
 
Hitzy said:
You can always go and get a second opinion from a reputable gunsmith, but I can guarantee they will tell you the bolt is trash due to the welding on the lug...
A new bolt is $100, but that likely won't solve the problem as the welding/grinding was done to fix some other issue with the rifle.
I'm sure someone can recommend a Garand Smith you can call/email some pics to.... Casey at Tacord comes to mind, I'm sure there are others. A mod on here is a retired Smith but may want to stay out of the serious comments due to vendor/CGN relationship.
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As was said before, the welding on the rear of the lugs was an very poor attempt to correct an excessive headspace condition as a result of incorrect chamber reaming. Any welding on the lugs would, in my books and that other authorities on the M1, including the US military, turn a serviceable bolt into a paperweight. The rifle I inspected, showed clear indications that the bolt wasn't even disassembled for welding, grinding and headspacing. A new bolt would increase the excessive headspacing.
 
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johnone said:
I assume by your posting of the exploded Garand, that you are saying one of our Garands exploded ?.
Would you be kind enough to provide the serial number so we can verify our records.
John
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Wow! I was waiting to see what John had to say about this debacle before i make my mind, this is ####ed up! What kind of answer is that? You sir have lost my buisness forever. Even if Marstar was the only source of something i want in this contry, i'd buy US or forget about the item instead of buying from this guy. INCREDIBLE!

 
call2arms said:
CGN originally. My Garand is not as bad as others have indicated. No "free float" barrel, no grinding on the front of the bolt, unfortunately the right lug is welded and ground. I would like to keep it and shoot it confidently, I would also like a explanation from the seller.
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In conjunction with safety issues plus the fact that they are not as described, your $2k investment in this rifle will be zilch if and when you come to sell it (providing its still in one piece)
People on this forum have repeatedly asked for an explanation. Nothing has been forthcoming...
 
Weak stuff, John

Everyone knew that exploded rifle was an example off the net of a Garand Gone Bad.

Just as you know that welded up bolt in the same post is from one of YOUR customers guns

Recall and parting out can't be a bigger loss than a lawsuit.

Of course if the average guy shoots his rifle only a few times and sells it or stores it, it could be years and several owners down the line before a kaboom. Good odds?
 
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