Not quite. Those who purchased these rifles had hopes and dream dashed on the rocks. They may now be soured on buying anything online as the lies and deceit may extend to other dealers or private sales. This fiasco has harmed the whole Canadian firearms community and those responsible have decided to let the matter slide. (both Marstar and CGN) The silence is deafening as the forum owners allow these to be sold by one of their banner sponsors. Is the vile corruption so deep as to not issue any statement from anyone in command? Please, do the Canadian firearms community a service and boot swindlers to the curb.
T2 Garand - Part 1
- Thread starter Dyspnea
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Not quite. Those who purchased these rifles had hopes and dream dashed on the rocks. They may now be soured on buying anything online as the lies and deceit may extend to other dealers or private sales. This fiasco has harmed the whole Canadian firearms community and those responsible have decided to let the matter slide. (both Marstar and CGN) The silence is deafening as the forum owners allow these to be sold by one of their banner sponsors. Is the vile corruption so deep as to not issue any statement from anyone in command? Please, do the Canadian firearms community a service and boot swindlers to the curb.
I think he is showing that no matter the reason, the tough, over engineered Garand can and will self destruct under the right (or wrong) circumstances. He did not imply that it is a Marstar abortion.
I think everyone should really take a step back from the keyboard and think through some of the comments they are making.
I too would like to hear from the retailer on this/these issues, but can't blame anyone not wanting to wade through the vitriol and potential hyperbole. It would be grand (Garand?) if we stayed on <this particular> topic, and maybe kept posters to those that bought the rifles and those with SME knowledge on the subject of Garands in general.
Some purchasers are out a fair amount of money, and if not money considering a return and refund, considerable time.
Rifling through post after post of 'glad I passed on these', 'I knew it was too good to be true' and 'let's have Johnone's head on a platter' is really quite counter productive.
Oh, and IBTL
I too would like to hear from the retailer on this/these issues, but can't blame anyone not wanting to wade through the vitriol and potential hyperbole. It would be grand (Garand?) if we stayed on <this particular> topic, and maybe kept posters to those that bought the rifles and those with SME knowledge on the subject of Garands in general.
Some purchasers are out a fair amount of money, and if not money considering a return and refund, considerable time.
Rifling through post after post of 'glad I passed on these', 'I knew it was too good to be true' and 'let's have Johnone's head on a platter' is really quite counter productive.
Oh, and IBTL
flying_scotsman
Regular
Someone needs to involve the RCMP before a shooter, or a shooter's child, is maimed or killed by one of John's Garand grenades. Like a Mark-II suggested above, it could be years before someone pulls the rifle out of Grandpa's collection and tries to fire it.
Will John's Ironclad Guarantee put little Billy's face back together forty years from now?
If he's not going to take responsible action after all this, he needs to be compelled to take that action.
Will John's Ironclad Guarantee put little Billy's face back together forty years from now?
If he's not going to take responsible action after all this, he needs to be compelled to take that action.
I believe Audet (another customer caught up in this scandal) has had his shipping costs reimbursed or been told to submit the bill for reimbursement.
There is no way anyone should be on the hook for shipping. Nothing would surprise me at this point anymore though. I will be contacting Marstar today after I get off work to begin the return process. I will be posting how it goes for me just so everyone can see how good the "Ironclad Guarantee" really is.
There is no way anyone should be on the hook for shipping. Nothing would surprise me at this point anymore though. I will be contacting Marstar today after I get off work to begin the return process. I will be posting how it goes for me just so everyone can see how good the "Ironclad Guarantee" really is.
I think that might turn out to be a double edged sword, unfortunately.
An investigation on this matter would likely cast light on the importation of military surplus and possibly new firearms as well.
It may lend support to further restrictions, testing and marking schemes for the entire industry, so careful what you wish for.
flying_scotsman
Regular
Then John needs to get off his throne, and do the right thing before it's too late.
Agreed. RCMP are not really our friends here...they know John pretty well too, and they raided Marstar in 1995 for nothing and well... you can read about it here.
http://www.canfirearms.ca/archives/text/v01n300-399/v01n352.txt
And here http://www.brucemontague.ca/html/0428.html
Very true . It was not that long ago that another rifle was brought to the attention of the RCMP ; and we all know what happened then....
I think everyone should really take a step back from the keyboard and think through some of the comments they are making.
I too would like to hear from the retailer on this/these issues, but can't blame anyone not wanting to wade through the vitriol and potential hyperbole. It would be grand (Garand?) if we stayed on <this particular> topic, and maybe kept posters to those that bought the rifles and those with SME knowledge on the subject of Garands in general.
Some purchasers are out a fair amount of money, and if not money considering a return and refund, considerable time.
Rifling through post after post of 'glad I passed on these', 'I knew it was too good to be true' and 'let's have Johnone's head on a platter' is really quite counter productive.
Oh, and IBTL
You fail to understand that the trust with the firearms community is what has been broken here. We have had our small market salted with just under 200 dubious firearms. People can argue buyer beware, you ought to check your purchases, you have a responsibility of knowing what was purchased and its safety as soon as you take possession...blah, blah, re-direct/mis-direct horsesh1t!
It is the vendors responsibility to advertise accurately (didn't happen here...not T2's), It is the vendors responsibility to ensure what is advertised functions as intended or to declare any misgivings. Marstar hasn't done this, therefore they are not to be trusted, their word has come into question...I will never buy from them again.
Oh...the German smith; full of sh1t in my opinion. I'll keep an eye out for his mark to ensure none of his crap ends up in my safe too!
By the way, since I just realized not everyone here will understand why it's important for factory angles to be maintained on the M1 bolt and for both lugs to bear evenly, here is a little education. Because someone will get snickety about it, these images are NOT of a Marstar-sold rifle that I know of. They were off the CMP forum in the USA, but are illustrative ONLY.
USGI specs, for a field rifle, call for 80% contact on BOTH lugs to pass grade. If they gauge under that, they are returned for rework.
Here is an example of a gun where the lugs bore unevenly and the bolt failed. In this case, according to the CMP folks who examined the rifle afterward, only the right lug made contact and the left lug had been out by a gap of only .0035".
You can see the bearing lug sheared off and luckily the second lug held.
Another view:
A 1961 Watertown Arsenal study of the M14 bolt, which is built from the same steel and treated the same way as an M1 bolt, found its tensile strength to vary, as expected, from 275,000 psi at the case hardened surface to 200,000 psi at the inner edge of the case depth to 138,000 psi in the core. This shows that the bolts rely on surface hardness for wear characteristics and a lower core tensile strength (ductility characteristics) for "toughness".
Once a bolt lug is welded on, the whole welded area will only be as hard as the fully annealed strength of the welding rod used - which generally will be similar to untreated mild steel for the vast majority of welding rod alloys, and definitely less tough than even an un-welded bolt core which was heat treated at manufacture. Alas, we have no idea what Hauck (or is it Hack?) used for this operation. (PS: Funny he denies doing the work when the photos on his site show his MIG welder out on the bench, clearly "in use" next to a pile of M1 parts)
Now add in the fact that the bolts were ground, and we do not know if a fixture was used, how hot the lugs got, whether they became annealed from grinding heat (in case they weren't already annealed from welding), or anything really. I do know the photos show welds that would not pass magna flux or even dye penetrant testing. In my line of work they would be called what we refer to as a "visual fail" with "observable indications". A polite way of saying very poor welding. Like drunken worker poor.
Some bolts show the lugs undercut, for those engineers and physicists in the crowd, undercutting a lug creates a fatigue-prone stress concentration corner and increases the bending moment about the base of the lug, in line with the bore axis, that is likely to increase the shear stress impulse upon firing.
Translation: grinding a bolt and under-cutting the geometry into the edge of the bolt body magnifies the likelihood it will fail, above and beyond just welding on a lug, because of the laws of physics.
For those keeping a welded bolt lug M1, I felt it was important to explain the physics behind the risk you are choosing to undertake. Cheers.
USGI specs, for a field rifle, call for 80% contact on BOTH lugs to pass grade. If they gauge under that, they are returned for rework.
Here is an example of a gun where the lugs bore unevenly and the bolt failed. In this case, according to the CMP folks who examined the rifle afterward, only the right lug made contact and the left lug had been out by a gap of only .0035".
You can see the bearing lug sheared off and luckily the second lug held.
Another view:
A 1961 Watertown Arsenal study of the M14 bolt, which is built from the same steel and treated the same way as an M1 bolt, found its tensile strength to vary, as expected, from 275,000 psi at the case hardened surface to 200,000 psi at the inner edge of the case depth to 138,000 psi in the core. This shows that the bolts rely on surface hardness for wear characteristics and a lower core tensile strength (ductility characteristics) for "toughness".
Once a bolt lug is welded on, the whole welded area will only be as hard as the fully annealed strength of the welding rod used - which generally will be similar to untreated mild steel for the vast majority of welding rod alloys, and definitely less tough than even an un-welded bolt core which was heat treated at manufacture. Alas, we have no idea what Hauck (or is it Hack?) used for this operation. (PS: Funny he denies doing the work when the photos on his site show his MIG welder out on the bench, clearly "in use" next to a pile of M1 parts)
Now add in the fact that the bolts were ground, and we do not know if a fixture was used, how hot the lugs got, whether they became annealed from grinding heat (in case they weren't already annealed from welding), or anything really. I do know the photos show welds that would not pass magna flux or even dye penetrant testing. In my line of work they would be called what we refer to as a "visual fail" with "observable indications". A polite way of saying very poor welding. Like drunken worker poor.
Some bolts show the lugs undercut, for those engineers and physicists in the crowd, undercutting a lug creates a fatigue-prone stress concentration corner and increases the bending moment about the base of the lug, in line with the bore axis, that is likely to increase the shear stress impulse upon firing.
Translation: grinding a bolt and under-cutting the geometry into the edge of the bolt body magnifies the likelihood it will fail, above and beyond just welding on a lug, because of the laws of physics.
For those keeping a welded bolt lug M1, I felt it was important to explain the physics behind the risk you are choosing to undertake. Cheers.
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