T97 barrel issue AND NRR WISHLIST!!!

i agree harbl I'm a natural lefty so when holding this gun as a righty my right hand is strong, i just tilt the gun to the left keep my left hand on the front push the button chuck the mag and reinsert a new mag. I'm thinking about running a little youtube competition to see who can reload the fastest
 
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Hey bro, when were you in the forces and where?

I think the placement of the controls actually makes sense with basic military doctrine kept in mind. Even though the STANAG magazine well/mag release was an afterthought - if you try to apply Canadian military tests of elementary training (TOET's) and Canadian military immediate actions and stoppage drills - it's not unreasonable having the controls where they are even though it's a completely different rifle.

It's a bit fuzzy, but when I was in, Canadian soldiers were taught upon a stoppage to immediately cant the weapon to the right and inspect the ejection port. If the bolt is fully to the rear (mag empty) conduct a magazine change. If the bolt was partially to the rear (failure to extract, failure to feed/double feed), to attempt to clear it (attempt to engage the slide stop, remove the magazine, cycle the action, load the magazine, cycle the action, shoot). If the bolt was fully forward (failure to feed, misfire), to cycle the action and attempt to fire again.

I don't recall the training for rundowns (I only ever did 2), but I believe the key component was to engage the safety before advancing (maybe an infantryman can correct me). While this is awkward with the T97, there was a video in the black rifle forum showing the Chinese Army shooting team doing run downs and chambering a round AFTER they had run down and were at their firing position - even though it appeared they were shooting the newer QBZ-95-1 with the improved fire selector switch above the pistol grip.

It's different - but realistically, nothing is safer than running with a loaded mag in the magwell with no round in the chamber. That does add the complication that an infantryman would have to do a full unload/reload (minus chambering a round) if advancing from one position to the other (or engage the safety which, with the older model QBZ's is as awkard as it is with our T97's). I do think the older QBZ-95's fire selector was inverted from the one's North Sylvia delivered - maybe that's the mod that had to be made to get these things approved as non-restricted. (I don't know). Either way, while not optimal, I don't think the positioning of the safety is as big of a deal as everyone is making it out to be.

Furthermore, to the magazine release, if you adopt the doctrine to always inspect the chamber through the ejection port by canting the rifle to the left, the positioning of the right sided magazine release button actually isn't too awkward to reload from. Try it if you have one - shoulder the rifle with an empty mag, cycle and lock the action to the rear, cant the rifle to the left and look down the ejection port. Try doing a reload from that position using your STRONG (or weak hand) - it's not nearly as awkward as trying to do a reload with the rifle shouldered in a ready position, fumbling around to try to press the mag release, and from there, trying to do a reload with your weak hand. Both are doable, but it feels more natural to do the cant the rifle, strong hand reload.

Furthermore, without inspecting the chamber, there's no way to immediately identify what issue may have caused the stoppage - and if you go through the sequence of "firing, firing, firing, firing STOPS!" the time involved to attempt a magazine change without inspecting the chamber, realize the issue is a misfeed, remove the magazine, clear the misfeed, and reload the magazine is much more than upon stoppage, cant to the left, inspect the chamber, observe a misfeed, attempt to rack the action to attempt to clear the stoppage (as opposed to lock the action back - as this is not possible on a T97 with a loaded mag), if the stoppage doesn't clear, remove the magazine, cycle the action to clear, replace the magazine, cycle shoot.

I know this is also quite a bit different than the US army IA drill with the M16/M4 - which is some variant of Tap/Rack/Bang/Oh noes my rifle doesn't work, call a tech! (just kidding - it's here: http://www.armystudyguide.com/content/army_board_study_guide_topics/m16a2/m16a2-study-guide.shtml) - but honestly, I do think Canadian soldiers are held to a higher standard than American's (and I'm sure most Canadians will corroborate that claim).
 
I think the placement of the controls actually makes sense with basic military doctrine kept in mind. Even though the STANAG magazine well/mag release was an afterthought - if you try to apply Canadian military tests of elementary training (TOET's) and Canadian military immediate actions and stoppage drills - it's not unreasonable having the controls where they are even though it's a completely different rifle.

It's a bit fuzzy, but when I was in, Canadian soldiers were taught upon a stoppage to immediately cant the weapon to the left and inspect the ejection port. If the bolt is fully to the rear (mag empty) conduct a magazine change. If the bolt was partially to the rear (failure to extract, failure to feed/double feed), to attempt to clear it (attempt to engage the slide stop, remove the magazine, cycle the action, load the magazine, cycle the action, shoot). If the bolt was fully forward (failure to feed, misfire), to cycle the action and attempt to fire again.

I don't recall the training for rundowns (I only ever did 2), but I believe the key component was to engage the safety before advancing (maybe an infantryman can correct me). While this is awkward with the T97, there was a video in the black rifle forum showing the Chinese Army shooting team doing run downs and chambering a round AFTER they had run down and were at their firing position - even though it appeared they were shooting the newer QBZ-95-1 with the improved fire selector switch above the pistol grip.

It's different - but realistically, nothing is safer than running with a loaded mag in the magwell with no round in the chamber. That does add the complication that an infantryman would have to do a full unload/reload (minus chambering a round) if advancing from one position to the other (or engage the safety which, with the older model QBZ's is as awkard as it is with our T97's). I do think the older QBZ-95's fire selector was inverted from the one's North Sylvia delivered - maybe that's the mod that had to be made to get these things approved as non-restricted. (I don't know). Either way, while not optimal, I don't think the positioning of the safety is as big of a deal as everyone is making it out to be.

Furthermore, to the magazine release, if you adopt the doctrine to always inspect the chamber through the ejection port by canting the rifle to the left, the positioning of the right sided magazine release button actually isn't too awkward to reload from. Try it if you have one - shoulder the rifle with an empty mag, cycle and lock the action to the rear, cant the rifle to the left and look down the ejection port. Try doing a reload from that position using your STRONG (or weak hand) - it's not nearly as awkward as trying to do a reload with the rifle shouldered in a ready position, fumbling around to try to press the mag release, and from there, trying to do a reload with your weak hand. Both are doable, but it feels more natural to do the cant the rifle, strong hand reload.

Furthermore, without inspecting the chamber, there's no way to immediately identify what issue may have caused the stoppage - and if you go through the sequence of "firing, firing, firing, firing STOPS!" the time involved to attempt a magazine change without inspecting the chamber, realize the issue is a misfeed, remove the magazine, clear the misfeed, and reload the magazine is much more than upon stoppage, cant to the left, inspect the chamber, observe a misfeed, attempt to rack the action to attempt to clear the stoppage (as opposed to lock the action back - as this is not possible on a T97 with a loaded mag), if the stoppage doesn't clear, remove the magazine, cycle the action to clear, replace the magazine, cycle shoot.

I know this is also quite a bit different than the US army IA drill with the M16/M4 - which is some variant of Tap/Rack/Bang/Oh noes my rifle doesn't work, call a tech! (just kidding - it's here: http://www.armystudyguide.com/content/army_board_study_guide_topics/m16a2/m16a2-study-guide.shtml) - but honestly, I do think Canadian soldiers are held to a higher standard than American's (and I'm sure most Canadians will corroborate that claim).

I'd still prefer a safety lever above the grip like on the Tavor or RFB, or even a cross-bolt like the AUG. Simply because a more readily accessible safety allows for more convenient carry. My policy is that the safety is on whenever I don't have direct control of the trigger, or when there is no immediate threat, regardless of the status of the firearm. Placing the safety on the stock slows down any IADs involving it's use. Quite frankly, it's rather asinine.

I'll grant that it is almost certainly safer to carry with the bolt closed on an empty chamber rather than condition one (for most firearms), but that is neither here nor there for the positioning of the safety. As you said, when dealing with repeated engagements (or firing strings as the case may be) there's no convenient way to unload the rifle quickly, hence why it makes sense to use the safety instead. It may have made mechanical sense to have the safety there, but it makes no ergonomic sense.


As for the mag release, a simple solution is just to reload with the strong hand. Tilt the rifle, examine the ejection port, right hand comes back thumb engages the release, pull the empty, insert new mag, hit the charging handle and drop back onto the grip. The issue here for me is that now I'm relinquishing control of the trigger and have no way to quickly engage the safety while doing so. I would prefer to reload with my off hand, but the magazine release is in just about the least convenient place to do so, whether I cant the rifle or not. It's not unusable, it's just not convenient.



The upside is that from looking at the design of the rifle, it shouldn't be too difficult to make an aftermarket lower hand-guard with a more ergonomic safety, replaceable grips, railed forends etc.
 
I'd still prefer a safety lever above the grip like on the Tavor or RFB, or even a cross-bolt like the AUG. Simply because a more readily accessible safety allows for more convenient carry. My policy is that the safety is on whenever I don't have direct control of the trigger, or when there is no immediate threat, regardless of the status of the firearm. Placing the safety on the stock slows down any IADs involving it's use. Quite frankly, it's rather asinine.

I'll grant that it is almost certainly safer to carry with the bolt closed on an empty chamber rather than condition one (for most firearms), but that is neither here nor there for the positioning of the safety. As you said, when dealing with repeated engagements (or firing strings as the case may be) there's no convenient way to unload the rifle quickly, hence why it makes sense to use the safety instead. It may have made mechanical sense to have the safety there, but it makes no ergonomic sense.


As for the mag release, a simple solution is just to reload with the strong hand. Tilt the rifle, examine the ejection port, right hand comes back thumb engages the release, pull the empty, insert new mag, hit the charging handle and drop back onto the grip. The issue here for me is that now I'm relinquishing control of the trigger and have no way to quickly engage the safety while doing so. I would prefer to reload with my off hand, but the magazine release is in just about the least convenient place to do so, whether I cant the rifle or not. It's not unusable, it's just not convenient.



The upside is that from looking at the design of the rifle, it shouldn't be too difficult to make an aftermarket lower hand-guard with a more ergonomic safety, replaceable grips, railed forends etc.

+1 on safety, that's why the Chinese fixed it, we need the Type 97-1 :p

Also, I have decently long fingers I can just use my index finger to press the mag release as easily as my thumb. Unless you've got short fingers, it's a training issue.
 
+1 on safety, that's why the Chinese fixed it, we need the Type 97-1 :p

Also, I have decently long fingers I can just use my index finger to press the mag release as easily as my thumb. Unless you've got short fingers, it's a training issue.

For the mag release it's not so much an issue of the release being unusable, but inconvenient. I think the release should be more conveniently placed to simplify the IAD and prevent bobbles from missing the catch. My ideal would be a flap type at the back of the magazine like on the Type95. Another possibility would be making it compatible with AR15 mag releases would make it a simple matter to replace the mag catch with an ambidextrous design.
 
fired 80 rounds through mine tonight got 6 rounds that pushed the bullet into the casing,this was with an rra lar15 mag, the factory mag works perfect what pistol mags have given success?
 
fired 80 rounds through mine tonight got 6 rounds that pushed the bullet into the casing,this was with an rra lar15 mag, the factory mag works perfect what pistol mags have given success?

The c-products (black) mags work really well. No problems with these at all. They are quite obviously better made. If you compare them to the grey lar-15 mags you'll see that the metal on the greys is a little high just in front of the follower, in the "notch" thru which the rounds feed (sorry, I don't know the correct lingo). I filed this area down as the mouths of the cartridge casings were catching here when feeding. Then I filed myself a slight "feed ramp" at the top of the magwell in the gun. I fired 100 rounds today and had one round with a pushed in bullet. A definite improvement. Otherwise the gun worked beautifully.

BTW, AA Beo mags feed flawlessly as well.
 
for the mag release it's not so much an issue of the release being unusable, but inconvenient. I think the release should be more conveniently placed to simplify the iad and prevent bobbles from missing the catch. My ideal would be a flap type at the back of the magazine like on the type95. Another possibility would be making it compatible with ar15 mag releases would make it a simple matter to replace the mag catch with an ambidextrous design.

iad?
 
fired 80 rounds through mine tonight got 6 rounds that pushed the bullet into the casing,this was with an rra lar15 mag, the factory mag works perfect what pistol mags have given success?

mags i have on hand are gen 2 pmags, grey RRA 10 rounders, the original, some norinco ones, and some tapco. All of mine work great but i didnt try the tapco, since they are so tight to fit in the magwell.
 
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