Ah man, that's a good point, it's just like we haven't seen any spare or aftermarket parts for the Tavors...
Tavor 7 .308 bullpup moves the needle
- Thread starter adamg
- Start date
Ah man, that's a good point, it's just like we haven't seen any spare or aftermarket parts for the Tavors...
I believe the IDF's DMR doctrine is closer to that of the Russians than NATO, where its only expected to perform out to moderate ranges {600 meters, maybe 800 under ideal conditions} while emphasizing reliability. As well, they may put more emphasis on putting the 7.62x51's advantage in barrier penetration to good use.
There are still bound to be benefits from platform specific training, especially when you're moving to a bullpup.
Engaging targets with a 4X (or even 6X) scope and a 2MOA ( or even 1.5MOA weapon ) out to 600m is a dream out in the field, in the hands of "regular joes". IMHO, the effect of SVD is exaggerated. Yes, it is obvious better than the AKs shooting iron sights, so really SVD in its original form is a 300m weapon most of the time while all the people in the section with AK are only good out to 150m max. Yes, everyone in a CDN infantry section with a C7 can reach out as much as the guy with a SVD Dragunov in real life.
If you look at the IDF infantry section, most of the people with X95 equipped with reflex sight are really 150m at the max. The one person with an ACOG can reach out to 300m, as well as the Negev. A big 7.62 version of X95 doesn't really add much. If they want a serious useful DMR, they need a weapon that is 1 MOA at the minimum and most importantly, putting the "operator" in a 3 week course and continuous skill maintenance afterwards.
Now you have to consider the IDF conscription system. In the 2 1/2 year of time, does it make sense to invest on the training? It probably makes more sense to only send the professional troops - this means only the special units.
I think this is the same problems we will be facing in the CF as well when we introduce the C-20 rifles. Not only do we need to run courses, but the skills need to be maintained much more than things like the GPMG.
Personally, I think TAVOR 7 will be a nice hunting rifle/Truck gun, and something fun to use for blasting all the 7.62 surplus ammo.
If you look at the IDF infantry section, most of the people with X95 equipped with reflex sight are really 150m at the max. The one person with an ACOG can reach out to 300m, as well as the Negev. A big 7.62 version of X95 doesn't really add much. If they want a serious useful DMR, they need a weapon that is 1 MOA at the minimum and most importantly, putting the "operator" in a 3 week course and continuous skill maintenance afterwards.
Now you have to consider the IDF conscription system. In the 2 1/2 year of time, does it make sense to invest on the training? It probably makes more sense to only send the professional troops - this means only the special units.
I think this is the same problems we will be facing in the CF as well when we introduce the C-20 rifles. Not only do we need to run courses, but the skills need to be maintained much more than things like the GPMG.
Personally, I think TAVOR 7 will be a nice hunting rifle/Truck gun, and something fun to use for blasting all the 7.62 surplus ammo.
I don't want to link it out of policy considerations, but a recent reviewer on a certain Bullpup forum was getting 1.5" 5 shot groups with Federal XM80 ball.
I don't know about you guys but I think that's respectable, even if not up to the standards of a more dedicated DMR system.
I don't know about you guys but I think that's respectable, even if not up to the standards of a more dedicated DMR system.
Here's one... let's say the 308 tavor is the same price as the SRS A1 recon 16"... (or vice versa), and the same quality/craftsmanship, which one would you take?
I'd be hard pressed to know which one I'd take.
On one side you have bolt action bullpup awesomeness... on the other side you have a semi auto bullpup awesomeness.
I'd be hard pressed to know which one I'd take.
On one side you have bolt action bullpup awesomeness... on the other side you have a semi auto bullpup awesomeness.
Different militaries have different doctrine and expectations, consider that for a long time Western militaries scoffed at the idea of a DMR.
Given the modest effective range of the X95 with dot sight combo, and the modest barrier penetration of 5.56 {try doing some
barrier testing some time, its an eye opener}, the Israelis may figure that there's a need for a modern 7.62 rifle has some commonality with what they're already using?
Given the modest effective range of the X95 with dot sight combo, and the modest barrier penetration of 5.56 {try doing some
barrier testing some time, its an eye opener}, the Israelis may figure that there's a need for a modern 7.62 rifle has some commonality with what they're already using?
onetwentyish
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
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- East Central AB (AKA Northern Texas)
That depends entirely on what your arsonal needs in it.
If you don't have a good bolt action I would say lean-to getting the Desert Tech. If you have good bolt actions, and need a hard-hitting 308 semi it doesn't need to be particularly accurate than the Tavor might be a good fit.
If you want something that's kind of the in-between grounds I would be looking at one of the Stag tens but it seems like you already have one according to your Sig line.
The Tavor 7 to me is most comparable to the xcr-m. It's a good semi-auto 308 gun that I'm sure will be decently reliable but not particularly accurate.
So I guess the question you need to ask yourself is what do you need more accuracy and compactness or a hard-hitting compact semi-auto?
Got Juice?
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- Peoples Republik of Kanukkistan
Cool, but does it Creed Moor? Or Less?
If this were the 80's or even the 90's then you would probably be right. But the type of accuracy the Tavor 7 has is outdated for a DM by ohh, since 2000. When countries are fielding sub 1 moa rifles (with ease) in Afghanistan back in 2004, you are going to have an issue calling it a DM rifle with the Tavor 7 accuracy. Especially when the Israeli special forces already use the KAC SR25 as a designated marksman rifle.
On a side note , Canada's new DM rifle the C20 by Colt Canada is .66 moa accurate. I've read that testing was 144 groups of 5 rounds and the .66 moa was the average. I've also shot a number of the former Canadian DM rifles the Armalite AR10t which with 175 smk rounds ie M118LR, they have shot .5 moa, 5 round groups without issue. That's an early 2000's rifle. Probably around 2004.
Cool, but are those other platforms reliable under gritty field conditions, and are they able to remain so in circumstances where relatively rapid fire heats the gun up?
r34skyline
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
They wouldn't be in current use if they weren't.
The g28 and lmt mws are the 2 new most popular 308 dm rifles. The kac has a big market share but it's losing ground to the new hk and lmt rifles. The colt canada c20 has performed favourably or at least so I'm told. I have no reason to doubt it.
