TAVOR vs Bushmaster ACR
- Thread starter Exidous
- Start date
Bushmaster ACR can be very tip heavy depending on length and contour of the NR barrel. Accuracy can be excellent with aftermarket match barrels. Stock trigger pull is 'ok', custom Geissele Super ACR triggers running at $377 right now. one Vendor is offering NR barrels for the ACR in a complete package with 1 in 7 twist.. In the past, many members have paid $$$$ for gunsmiths like Herron's to convert the ACR. Some of these conversions contain very high end barrels: Krieger or Bartlein.
Tavor is shorter and less tip heavy. It is still heavier than a standard AR. Stock trigger pull can be heavy, Geissele trigger for Tavor is at over $500 now, with an additional $143 for the Lightning trigger bow.
Overall the tavor is less accurate. I had one of the first ones in Canada almost 10 years ago and sold it after one range session as I was disappointed with the accuracy.
The tavor may also need a riser to put optics at the proper eye level, especially if you are using ADM or standard height Larue optics mounts.
In my opinion, the only advantage either of these have over an AR is the NR status. They also cost lots of $$$$$
Tavor is shorter and less tip heavy. It is still heavier than a standard AR. Stock trigger pull can be heavy, Geissele trigger for Tavor is at over $500 now, with an additional $143 for the Lightning trigger bow.
Overall the tavor is less accurate. I had one of the first ones in Canada almost 10 years ago and sold it after one range session as I was disappointed with the accuracy.
The tavor may also need a riser to put optics at the proper eye level, especially if you are using ADM or standard height Larue optics mounts.
In my opinion, the only advantage either of these have over an AR is the NR status. They also cost lots of $$$$$
Still alive
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
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Talk to guys like Dilligaf, 120ish and mikethebike. They either have or are in the process of getting the guns you mentioned.
Theae are regular guys here and I would trust their opinions.
I don't know much about the ACR but I can answer most questions about the Tavor.
Theae are regular guys here and I would trust their opinions.
I don't know much about the ACR but I can answer most questions about the Tavor.
They both have excellent ergos and they're about the same weight. The difference being that in the ACR, the weight is all up front, so it feels heavier than it is. In the Tavor, all the weight is in the buttstock, and feels much lighter than it is.
The Tavor is ultra short, which is hard to appreciate until you try it side by side with another rifle. It's comparable in length to an 11.5" AR. The unique shape of the Tavor also makes it very easy to hold rock-steady on target from offhand. It was made to be shot from a standing or kneeling position. The weight distribution is an asset there was well.
The Tavor's current Gen 2.5 triggers are good enough that I saw no need to replace mine. They are capable of good accuracy, but it definitely takes practice to overcome the Glock-like trigger. The ACR obviously has the better trigger.
The Tavor's the better deal price wise, unless you spend the cash on the Geissele trigger bits. Then the price is comparable to a NR ACR.
The Tavor is ultra short, which is hard to appreciate until you try it side by side with another rifle. It's comparable in length to an 11.5" AR. The unique shape of the Tavor also makes it very easy to hold rock-steady on target from offhand. It was made to be shot from a standing or kneeling position. The weight distribution is an asset there was well.
The Tavor's current Gen 2.5 triggers are good enough that I saw no need to replace mine. They are capable of good accuracy, but it definitely takes practice to overcome the Glock-like trigger. The ACR obviously has the better trigger.
The Tavor's the better deal price wise, unless you spend the cash on the Geissele trigger bits. Then the price is comparable to a NR ACR.
What do you mean by Tip Heavy?
I can only chime in about the Tavor as I just purchased one. What i can tell you is that if you're in the ar15 scene, the Tavor offers a bit of a cool alternative configuration.
The fact that it is a service rifle and that its been around for awhile proves its has market share and will continue to be around.
You get a NR rifle in a nice, balanced configuration. There is a siginificant after market being developed and I expect it to grow as the US market expands.
It is heavier than the ar15 platform, but its balanced and you get a lot of quality in that design (factory 1/7 chf barrel, piston system, comfortable - allthough unique - ergonomics)
The ACR is a fine rifle from what I have read, however, it didnt deliver the market share like it was supposed to and it never lived up to the hype of the Masada. Short of a barrel swap, theres not much else you will be modifying (maybe the trigger). Reading up on US opinions, people enjoy the rifle but its not holy grail it had been hyped up to.
If you can get over the "short comings" of the Tavor (mainly the ergonomics of a bullpup - location of bolt release, mag release and height over bore of most optics) youd be hard pressed to not enjoy your purchase.
The fact that it is a service rifle and that its been around for awhile proves its has market share and will continue to be around.
You get a NR rifle in a nice, balanced configuration. There is a siginificant after market being developed and I expect it to grow as the US market expands.
It is heavier than the ar15 platform, but its balanced and you get a lot of quality in that design (factory 1/7 chf barrel, piston system, comfortable - allthough unique - ergonomics)
The ACR is a fine rifle from what I have read, however, it didnt deliver the market share like it was supposed to and it never lived up to the hype of the Masada. Short of a barrel swap, theres not much else you will be modifying (maybe the trigger). Reading up on US opinions, people enjoy the rifle but its not holy grail it had been hyped up to.
If you can get over the "short comings" of the Tavor (mainly the ergonomics of a bullpup - location of bolt release, mag release and height over bore of most optics) youd be hard pressed to not enjoy your purchase.
onetwentyish
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
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To me it really depends on where you are going and what you are trying to achieve with it. I will be back with more insight in a bit, but if you can answer those it will be easier to answer which is best fit for you.
If you can stand the weight pentalites of the ACR, here's what you get over the Tavor: (yes, I've owned both, and I now own two ACR's)
Better ergonomics than Tavor (about the only thing that ACR wins over the Tavor in this area is learning the reload. Tavor reloads are significantly different than the ACR) Nearly everything is at your finger tip (bolt release, safety, mag release) Tavor has safety at your finger/thumb. Mag and bolt release are built into the mag release, or a quick pull of the charging handle (the ACR does this as well)
Grips on both rifles are not interchangeable.
Both have forward charging handle
As mentioned, balance is different. ACR is tip/weight forward biased (similar to a full size Swiss Arms) the Tavor is more center balanced. You could hook your hand under the "carry grip" in the middle of the Tavor and it would be comfortable to carry it that way as it balances evenly. Overall, the Tavor weighs more than the ACR.
Accuracy is the difference. My ACR's shoot at 50m with ease and flat out to 100m with no adjustments needed (ok, minor adjustments to tighten the groups). The Tavor was less accurate and required adjustments/compensating for 100m
Size: the ACR feels smaller. It looks smaller as well. It's hard to explain this phenomenon, but it feels "small" when you hold it.
Driving from Target to Target: Not gonna lie here, Tavor manages this easily over the ACR. But that's just physics.
Trigger: ACR wins this round. You can adapt any AR trigger to the ACR by bending one leg of the spring. Giving you a vast array of variables and configurations. Tavor currently has.. Two?
Recoil: Both are very similar, I'd say the ACR is abit sharper, most likely due to overall weight?. I have installed Lantac Dragoon muzzle brakes on my ACR's and now feel nothing, so I would imagine it does the same to the Tavor. You get less muzzle rise with the ACR due to the forward weight.
That's about all I can think of off the top of my head, if I think of anything else, I'll post more.
Better ergonomics than Tavor (about the only thing that ACR wins over the Tavor in this area is learning the reload. Tavor reloads are significantly different than the ACR) Nearly everything is at your finger tip (bolt release, safety, mag release) Tavor has safety at your finger/thumb. Mag and bolt release are built into the mag release, or a quick pull of the charging handle (the ACR does this as well)
Grips on both rifles are not interchangeable.
Both have forward charging handle
As mentioned, balance is different. ACR is tip/weight forward biased (similar to a full size Swiss Arms) the Tavor is more center balanced. You could hook your hand under the "carry grip" in the middle of the Tavor and it would be comfortable to carry it that way as it balances evenly. Overall, the Tavor weighs more than the ACR.
Accuracy is the difference. My ACR's shoot at 50m with ease and flat out to 100m with no adjustments needed (ok, minor adjustments to tighten the groups). The Tavor was less accurate and required adjustments/compensating for 100m
Size: the ACR feels smaller. It looks smaller as well. It's hard to explain this phenomenon, but it feels "small" when you hold it.
Driving from Target to Target: Not gonna lie here, Tavor manages this easily over the ACR. But that's just physics.
Trigger: ACR wins this round. You can adapt any AR trigger to the ACR by bending one leg of the spring. Giving you a vast array of variables and configurations. Tavor currently has.. Two?
Recoil: Both are very similar, I'd say the ACR is abit sharper, most likely due to overall weight?. I have installed Lantac Dragoon muzzle brakes on my ACR's and now feel nothing, so I would imagine it does the same to the Tavor. You get less muzzle rise with the ACR due to the forward weight.
That's about all I can think of off the top of my head, if I think of anything else, I'll post more.
I've owned shot ACR, Tavor and handled/owned them extensively(even CTAR). For most part, the Tavor excels in price-to-value compared to the Tavor, with one possible exception: the ACR is more accurate. This doesnt mean the Tavor isn't accurate, just not AS accurate.
So if you ask me if the little bit of accuracy gain is worth the extra cost, lack of spare parts and support, front heaviness, and overall length, as well as unproven in battle vs the Tavor, it's a clear choice.
If you do end up choosing the ACR, at least you know that you are sacrificing the above.
So if you ask me if the little bit of accuracy gain is worth the extra cost, lack of spare parts and support, front heaviness, and overall length, as well as unproven in battle vs the Tavor, it's a clear choice.
If you do end up choosing the ACR, at least you know that you are sacrificing the above.
The truth is, they are both pretty awesome and if you've owned both like I have, you will always want to own both.
If I were in the IDF I'd want the Tavor: Easier to maneuver in tight areas, getting in and out of LAV's, in buildings etc. It's well proven.
Buuut I'm not in the IDF, and I like to shoot quite a bit, fairly quickly. I think you'll find that the accuracy of the Tavor really drops off after a few mags - it has a pencil barrel. You will also need some pretty good ammo to get tight groups if that's imporant. If you're shooting figure 11's at 25 M who cares? The older I get, the more I want the most accuracy possible out of a gun - I want to know that I can't blame the rifle. If that makes sense.
The ACR is just more versatile for me, sure it's a bit heavier than an AR (just over a pound) and a lot more front heavy than the Tav obviously, its not a huge factor for me, I'm planning to run it in Service rifle. I shot better in drills within 25 meters with the ACR than with a short AR. Not sure why, but I think it has to do with very low recoil and muzzle rise with a front heavy rifle - you just stay on target. At distance, the ACR is going to out perform the Tavor in my experience (200M).
Anyways, ask yourself what you plan to do with it, both are quite versatile and awesome
If I were in the IDF I'd want the Tavor: Easier to maneuver in tight areas, getting in and out of LAV's, in buildings etc. It's well proven.
Buuut I'm not in the IDF, and I like to shoot quite a bit, fairly quickly. I think you'll find that the accuracy of the Tavor really drops off after a few mags - it has a pencil barrel. You will also need some pretty good ammo to get tight groups if that's imporant. If you're shooting figure 11's at 25 M who cares? The older I get, the more I want the most accuracy possible out of a gun - I want to know that I can't blame the rifle. If that makes sense.
The ACR is just more versatile for me, sure it's a bit heavier than an AR (just over a pound) and a lot more front heavy than the Tav obviously, its not a huge factor for me, I'm planning to run it in Service rifle. I shot better in drills within 25 meters with the ACR than with a short AR. Not sure why, but I think it has to do with very low recoil and muzzle rise with a front heavy rifle - you just stay on target. At distance, the ACR is going to out perform the Tavor in my experience (200M).
Anyways, ask yourself what you plan to do with it, both are quite versatile and awesome
I want to use it for target shooting in the woods mostly and possibly for hunting although it wouldn't be my main hunting rifle. Basically just a new toy to have some fun.
The height over bore is my main concern. How much of a pain is this in practice?
Are there optics which mitigate this issue?
Thanks.
^ Using a 30mm scope can help.Still a bit low. Or a red dot with a 'lower 1/3 co-witness' mount setup meant for AR. Otherwise you're swapping the integrated rail (see TV Presspass' setup), or adding a riser (weight).
I had one of those Bushnell AR 1-4's on mine. Had to add a riser for height. With the brutal weight of the Bushnell (17 ounces without a mount), plus the scope mount, plus the riser - it became totally top heavy and felt like it was trying to tip itself over. I would stick with a Red Dot like the Israelis intended, personally.
I had one of those Bushnell AR 1-4's on mine. Had to add a riser for height. With the brutal weight of the Bushnell (17 ounces without a mount), plus the scope mount, plus the riser - it became totally top heavy and felt like it was trying to tip itself over. I would stick with a Red Dot like the Israelis intended, personally.
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onetwentyish
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- East Central AB (AKA Northern Texas)
Sounds like an ACR.
Factory Tavors seem to be a 1.5moa gun at best, and with normal bulk factory ammo that figure swells to 2-4moa.
My Herron Arms converted NR ACR sports a Bartlien Barrel featuring a .223 wylde chamber. I have not shot for groups yet other than to zero, but it is noticeably more accurate than my Tav while plinking. I am curious what the Tavor would be capable of with a good barrel and freefloating the barrel.
Both have relatively easy barrel swap procedures, but the ACR is definitely fastest with its toolless design, which makes for very easy caliber swaps. You could use the ACR for everything from gophers to elephants if you had the right caliber conversions built.
rommelrommel
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
What will actually mitigate it a bit is the Manticore butt pad, which does encourage you to shoulder the rifle a bit higher and might allow you to run without a riser. Personally I'm using the GHW rail which does put my optic a fair bit over bore, but I wouldn't trade that for the "heads up" feel that I get running it this way.
So I've been watching Youtube reviews of both these rifles and it seems that Tavor is favored by the majority of them. Once other common deficiency mentioned with the Tavor is the trigger.
Based on your personal experience guys how bad is it?
Are there various generations of the Tavor with the newer ones having a better trigger?
Thanks.
Based on your personal experience guys how bad is it?
Are there various generations of the Tavor with the newer ones having a better trigger?
Thanks.
I find the trigger on my tav a little sloppy. I have don't the trigger mod to mine, which does lighten up the slack tremendously. The break now is still heavy, but it is consistent enough me. Like most guys have said, it is a 1.5 moa gun at best with its stock trigger. I plan on purchasing the lightning bow to help mine be more consistent then it is. I can deal with the weight of the break, I just like consistency. Maybe at some point down the line Ill drop the coin on a geisselle trigger pack, we will see.
mine is also the current gen 2.5 model
mine is also the current gen 2.5 model
