Tex Grebner : SERPA : Bullets to the leg

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I wanted to create a video about the SERPA holster and the incident where Tex Grebner accidentally shoots himself in the leg while using a Kimber 1911 in a SERPA belt holster. Here's the original video posted by Tex Grebner:

Warning: Graphic content and language
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zYvAxLX6OzE

I've owned SERPA holsters for many years and I own 5 of them for various handguns. I'm always tempted by their low cost and what I believe to be ease of use. But I've also come to realize they have some inherent flaws.

[youtube]GDpxVG9XFJc[/youtube]

Questions and comments are welcome.
 
Serpas use to have this issue but have LONG since fixed them .. i think the guy was just using it as an excuse as in slow motion you can clearly see that the firearm had cleared the holster before it fired and it was his finger inside the trigger that did it .
 
I have a retention holster made my Itac Defense.

http://itacdefense.com/ShowProductDetails.aspx?ProductID=66&CategoryID=331

One major difference between his holster and mine is the height of the release button. Mine sticks out from the face of the holster, while his is recessed.

On my Itac Defense; At no time would you ever need to curl your finger to depress the release button, regardless of the length of your finger.

A straight finger will hit it every time.
 
Serpa have absolutely NOT fixed the issues which make them dangerous; that is because the single biggest issue is UNFIXABLE.

Can you release the holster by laying your finger along the slide exactly like you ought to? You bet.

Under stress, people who for whatever reason blow the initial release of the retention thing don't leave their fingers in a nice, straight position.

They begin to curl the finger in to "press harder" on the release tab.

Consequently, UNDER PRESSURE, Serpa users may take on a hand position that is seriously dangerous on the draw.

I ran a Serpa holster for about a year and never ran in to trouble. But I can see exactly how it would happen and I got rid of it. STAY THE #### AWAY FROM SERPA HOLSTERS. There are a ton of better options.

And that's not even addressing their other issues...like their garbage mounts, the fact that getting dirt or other contaminants in your holster can jam them up so hard they need to be disassembled to get the gun out, or the fact that one-handed weapons manipulations with them can also result in locking your gun in place and require disassembly to get it out.


There is a reason they are getting banned all over the place, from ranges to shooting classes to PDs. They are not just ####ty holsters, they are ####ty holsters that can get you killed (by yourself if you're a competitor, or by someone else if you're a cop or one of the three civilians or however many it is in this country that are allowed to carry).
 
I've ran the Serpa pretty much a few months after it came out. I have never 'arched my finger to depress the release'

What's that saying is that somebody makes a mistake of unlocking it, and then makes another mistake by 'forcing the mechanism' which was designed with a 'retention' mechanism. That's the point of the design. Somebody pulls your gun out, as long as they are pulling, they wont be able to pull the fire-arm out.

If you can't control your actions under pressure, then you shouldnt own a fire-arm. All of it is 100% accountability for your actions, and blaming your equipment (when it didnt fail) is just a scapegoat BS excuse.

He did make 2 mistakes. 2 Very... "rookie" mistakes. Something that shouldnt happen with practice.

A lot of shooters do this. They have a way of doing it, and when they encounter a problem they come up with some weird ways of solving it. A lot of them work, but like in this case some can be very dangerous.

"on target off trigger" Also means "off target, out of trigger guard"

If you watch the video, for whatever unkown reason he curls his finger. That then puts his finger in the trigger guard way before the fire-arm is raised. This is how it would work on any holster if for whatever reason you decided to curl your finger.

Like I said. It was a pretty rookie error.

Luke
 
TheGamer### said:
I've ran the Serpa pretty much a few months after it came out. I have never 'arched my finger to depress the release'

What's that saying is that somebody makes a mistake of unlocking it, and then makes another mistake by 'forcing the mechanism' which was designed with a 'retention' mechanism. That's the point of the design. Somebody pulls your gun out, as long as they are pulling, they wont be able to pull the fire-arm out.

If you can't control your actions under pressure, then you shouldnt own a fire-arm. All of it is 100% accountability for your actions, and blaming your equipment (when it didnt fail) is just a scapegoat BS excuse.

He did make 2 mistakes. 2 Very... "rookie" mistakes. Something that shouldnt happen with practice.

A lot of shooters do this. They have a way of doing it, and when they encounter a problem they come up with some weird ways of solving it. A lot of them work, but like in this case some can be very dangerous.

"on target off trigger" Also means "off target, out of trigger guard"

If you watch the video, for whatever unkown reason he curls his finger. That then puts his finger in the trigger guard way before the fire-arm is raised. This is how it would work on any holster if for whatever reason you decided to curl your finger.

Like I said. It was a pretty rookie error.

Luke
Click to expand...

Both of the mistakes you are talking about are commonly made even by experienced shooters when under serious pressure. "Controlling your actions under pressure" is not an absolute. It's a matter of degree. Can you thread a needle while people are shooting at you? No? Why not?

It's not that uncommon for people to rip holsters right off their belts if their retention fails to come loose under critical incident stress. If you think you can guarantee that your index finger will stay nice and straight while you're ripping belt loops off your pants because you're wrenching your gun hard in a panic, great...then you only have the other major failings of the Serpa to worry about.

Or if you'll never use it off a clean, indoor range, and you don't recommend it for use by anyone who'll do anything more with it, and who also will never curve their finger under stress, also...fine, then it's only the Serpa's other failings to worry about.

But considering how many superior holsters there are in the same price range which don't put the user's life in jeopardy...I will stick with my advice: stay the #### away from those POS holsters.
 
Pressure?

Im not sure where you practice... but the most pressure I get is a beep.

As for threading the needle... probably. My hands dont shake when im under stress... (depending on level of course)

All im saying is that under his "stress" condition, the ND is just negligence, not caused by something mechanically failing.

If you are using it by curling your finger to depress the release. You are teaching yourself to fail.

It'd be as good as looking down a loaded fire-arm to see if there is a round chambered, with the finger on the trigger.

But like you said. There are other holsters out there. I guess some just shouldnt be trusted to basic functions.

Luke
 
Only a newbie would let someone rear end him while driving a Pinto. Any serious driver would not catch on fire as he would be able to prevent his Pinto from getting rear ended. If you can't prevent yourself from being rear ended, you shouldn't have a driver's license.

Practicing may very well teach you how to operate equipment, even enough to cover for it's quirks, but folks, sometimes a bad design is a bad design.
 
TheGamer### said:
Pressure?

Im not sure where you practice... but the most pressure I get is a beep.

As for threading the needle... probably. My hands dont shake when im under stress... (depending on level of course)

All im saying is that under his "stress" condition, the ND is just negligence, not caused by something mechanically failing.

If you are using it by curling your finger to depress the release. You are teaching yourself to fail.

It'd be as good as looking down a loaded fire-arm to see if there is a round chambered, with the finger on the trigger.

But like you said. There are other holsters out there. I guess some just shouldnt be trusted to basic functions.

Luke
Click to expand...

Rationalize your holster any way you want ignore the compelling evidence to the contrary. That's the thing about serious stress, you never know how it's going to affect you. Why use something that may cause issues under stress? It's Ok though, you'll probably be fine using your Serpa.

On another note, can the locking mechanism on the Serpa be removed to still give a usable range holster?
 
TheGamer### said:
Pressure?

Im not sure where you practice... but the most pressure I get is a beep.

As for threading the needle... probably. My hands dont shake when im under stress... (depending on level of course)

All im saying is that under his "stress" condition, the ND is just negligence, not caused by something mechanically failing.

If you are using it by curling your finger to depress the release. You are teaching yourself to fail.

It'd be as good as looking down a loaded fire-arm to see if there is a round chambered, with the finger on the trigger.

But like you said. There are other holsters out there. I guess some just shouldnt be trusted to basic functions.

Luke
Click to expand...

Unfortunately I am with Misantropist on this one and so are some very big and well known people such as:

1) Larry Vickers: Banned in his classes
2) Gunsite: Banned
3)Tactical Response: Banned
4)Gabe Saurez: not banned but you are required to sign a waiver saying you are solely responsible for any injury to you or others

And that was just 5 min and google I am sure there are more. So I am going to go out on a limb and say there is still issues with the holster.

There is also another thread on it here:

http://www.canadiangunnutz.com/forum/showthread.php?t=628565

Shawn
 
Greenhorse six said:
Because no one has ever had a ND and shot them self in the leg using any other holster, Good Grief, "Glock leg" only happens when using Serpa holsters, it's true,I read it on the interweb.:rolleyes:
Click to expand...

That's like saying people get hit by lightning all the time that aren't holding a golf club in the air during a thunder storm. So it makes no difference if I walk around holding a golf club up in the air when there are storms.

Why handicap yourself and use something that increases risk and not reduces it.:rolleyes:

But what do gunsite, tactical response, Larry Vickers and Gabe Saurze know about shooting, its all good some guys on CGN said it was just internet hype.

Shawn
 
shawn said:
That's like saying people get hit by lightning all the time that aren't holding a golf club in the air during a thunder storm. So it makes no difference if I walk around holding a golf club up in the air when there are storms.

Why handicap yourself and use something that increases risk and not reduces it.:rolleyes:

But what do gunsite, tactical response, Larry Vickers and Gabe Saurze know about shooting, its all good some guys on CGN said it was just internet hype.

Shawn
Click to expand...
That makes no sense what you said.

Hey, never said the holster was with out fault, the relaese is in a bad place, I'am with you that it has issues, but like was said in the video some of it is human error too.
 
f:P:

The Serpa still has its defenders? Colour me unsurprised.

I don't even know what to say anymore. You'd think that after Larry Vickers banned it from his classes...

after Kyle Defoor was quoted as saying "Serpas will #### you"...

after Ken Hackathorn and every other big-name firearms instructor has either banned them or explicitly, in name, denounced their design...

You'd think we would get a clue.
 
Dexter Morgan said:
How popular is the Serpa style release in IDPA?
Click to expand...

I've seen quite a few shooters using these holsters. Here they are one of the most common off the shelf IDPA/IPSC solutions for a holster - just about anything else has to be mail ordered.

Clobbersauras said:
On another note, can the locking mechanism on the Serpa be removed to still give a usable range holster?
Click to expand...

I've checked this out before, I don't think that you can convert one into a non-serpa - or perhaps the conversion just turns it into a very loose pouch style holster with zero retention I can't remember right now.

Good video.
 
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