The best kept secret in optics?

As far as I know S&B optics get second or third choice for mostly these reasons. The reticle is much too complicated and with so many similar size gradient lines, it's nearly useless in conditions of poorer lighting conditions. And fast acquisition of the central reticle is also hampered by the obnoxious mathematical grid lines.
 
I feel like gun owners will argue about pretty much anything and everything. I've never seen more people disagree in my life. I bet half the Aimpoint posters here get to the range 3 or 4 times a year.
 
I feel like gun owners will argue about pretty much anything and everything. I've never seen more people disagree in my life. I bet half the Aimpoint posters here get to the range 3 or 4 times a year.

Probably not far off, not me though, my gun range is in my yard, I shoot all the time :)
 
Listen here have you guys tried the vortex red dots? They come with a super good warranty.

As far as I know S&B optics get second or third choice for mostly these reasons. The reticle is much too complicated and with so many similar size gradient lines, it's nearly useless in conditions of poorer lighting conditions. And fast acquisition of the central reticle is also hampered by the obnoxious mathematical grid lines.

The people that ##### about horus style reticles are the ones that don't understand or know how to run them right. Simple truth there sorry. If you take the time to learn them right they are soms of the most field effective reticles. Not the only ones but they are up there.

Serious edit. Why is this on the black rifles and not in optics subforum?
 
Listen here have you guys tried the vortex red dots? They come with a super good warranty.



The people that ##### about horus style reticles are the ones that don't understand or know how to run them right. Simple truth there sorry. If you take the time to learn them right they are soms of the most field effective reticles. Not the only ones but they are up there.

Serious edit. Why is this on the black rifles and not in optics subforum?

Unfortunately if you buy Vortex you'll likely need to use that warranty. Three out of four of the Vortex scopes I've owned have needed warranty work and they were all Viper PST models so not their cheap $400 stuff which is worse quality.

It's here because it started as a dot sight thread then when arguing about Aimpoint being better that a whatever Korean brand we were talking about someone brought up S&B and we went on a detour. You know, the usual :p
 
Listen here have you guys tried the vortex red dots? They come with a super good warranty.



The people that ##### about horus style reticles are the ones that don't understand or know how to run them right. Simple truth there sorry. If you take the time to learn them right they are soms of the most field effective reticles. Not the only ones but they are up there.

Serious edit. Why is this on the black rifles and not in optics subforum?

Problem of many, when you use those retical the way they are supposed to they work wonder. I use a Schmidt and Bender for hunting and when it get darker, only with the moonlight i can see through my scope, they are fantastic.
 
Unfortunately if you buy Vortex you'll likely need to use that warranty. Three out of four of the Vortex scopes I've owned have needed warranty work and they were all Viper PST models so not their cheap $400 stuff which is worse quality.

It's here because it started as a dot sight thread then when arguing about Aimpoint being better that a whatever Korean brand we were talking about someone brought up S&B and we went on a detour. You know, the usual :p

I suppose the sarcasm of my post didn't translate well on text. I was making fun of the vortex clowns and their immediate "it's got a great warranty you know".

I'm aware they are junk. For red dots I have no experience outside of aimpoints. Seeing the reasonable prices used aimpoints come up on the ee from time to time(got a comp m4 on the ee with a larue qd mount for like 550) I have never seen the reason to penny pinch on red dots.
 
I suppose the sarcasm of my post didn't translate well on text. I was making fun of the vortex clowns and their immediate "it's got a great warranty you know".

I'm aware they are junk. For red dots I have no experience outside of aimpoints. Seeing the reasonable prices used aimpoints come up on the ee from time to time(got a comp m4 on the ee with a larue qd mount for like 550) I have never seen the reason to penny pinch on red dots.

Lol, sorry I missed it, we're on the same page now :)

Only reason I can see to penny pinch on optics is when a person is in over their head and can't actually afford the sport/hobby they've chosen. Same guys that buy a $3000 NR semi then run a $200 scope and surplus ammo then expect it to shot sub moa because it's an expensive rifle.

Could also be that they've never looked through quality glass other than in a gun shop where everything looks good under the bright fluorescent lights. It's not till you get outside under natural light and at targets more than 30 yards away the quality shows.

Or maybe guys are cheap and just don't care if what they have is the best. As long as it works I don't really care what guys buy, it's not like they're going to tell me I'm stupid to spend extra for quality. A cheap dot sight is still better than cheap irons.

Best kept secret in optics? Meh.
A decent quality affordable alternative to an Aimpoint? Sure :)
 
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I buy higher end when I can, but drag racing is not cheap. So most of my money goes there. So sacrifices sometimes are made. However I still own eotechs and have an Aimpoint H. But I do like DI optical quite a bit. For the money Imo they are the best budget friendly optic
 
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Lol, sorry I missed it, we're on the same page now :)

Only reason I can see to penny pinch on optics is when a person is in over their head and can't actually afford the sport/hobby they've chosen. Same guys that buy a $3000 NR semi then run a $200 scope and surplus ammo then expect it to shot sub moa because it's an expensive rifle.

Could also be that they've never looked through quality glass other than in a gun shop where everything looks good under the bright fluorescent lights. It's not till you get outside under natural light and at targets more than 30 yards away the quality shows.

Or maybe guys are cheap and just don't care if what they have is the best. As long as it works I don't really care what guys buy, it's not like they're going to tell me I'm stupid to spend extra for quality. A cheap dot sight is still better than cheap irons.

Best kept secret in optics? Meh.
A decent quality affordable alternative to an Aimpoint? Sure :)

Sounds like poor financial planning. Reminds me of a story I heard about some guy buying a trg42 then having no money for optics so they bought magpul mbus for it. Still sounds a bit too obscene for me to believe. But at this point I wouldn't be surprised.

And i agree 100%. Odds are they saw it in store said yup thats good then never compared it again under actual field/range conditions. I've had people say their vortex or bushnell is uber clear then had their mind blown when they saw the zeiss conquest hd5... and once again when they looked through the s&b pmII in ranges where they had to spot targets at 300m and beyond.

As for the op optic. Looks like a budget dot. I say meh get a used aimpoint off the ee. I never understood how a hundred maybe 2 made that big a difference. If your budget doesnt have that margin odds are this sport is a bit beyond your current financial capability. Not trying to be a ####. But either you bought a gun beyond your financial capabilities or just plain need to play in the rimfire world(and i really don't mean that as a slight because i ####ing love my 22lrs.)
 
1st rule of optics, Don't look thru glass you cant afford. :) Learned that the hard way...lol...

But the more Ive trained the more I realized how important good quality kit is. And this is why I now just Have 1 pistol and 1 AR that done up properly instead of a locker full of guns with medioker parts.
 
1st rule of optics, Don't look thru glass you cant afford. :) Learned that the hard way...lol...

But the more Ive trained the more I realized how important good quality kit is. And this is why I now just Have 1 pistol and 1 AR that done up properly instead of a locker full of guns with medioker parts.

And i hope people getting into this with some degree of seriousness learn this lesson from you.

I don't have 1. But 1 good setup beats a safe full of mediocore junk.
 
Not yet much of a black gun guy.


My comment on the holosun being junk.....i have 4 safes overflowing. Not every rifle gets a Kahles, Swaro, or Nightforce. If it keeps zero, enjoy it. You already realize its limitations, hopefully when it dies(one of the limitations) your in the financial position to replace it with better.

Enjoy.
 
1st rule of optics, Don't look thru glass you cant afford. :) Learned that the hard way...lol...

But the more Ive trained the more I realized how important good quality kit is. And this is why I now just Have 1 pistol and 1 AR that done up properly instead of a locker full of guns with medioker parts.

That's the truth, it wasn't until I looked through a Sightron side by side with a Bushnell at 700 yards that I realized that Bushnell is junk if long range shooting is your goal. I went home and put the Bushnell on the EE and sold it for a loss just to get rid of it, it was their Elite 6500 series so it should have been one of their better scopes.
 
I can't believe that I read through the entire thread, but I did. All I read was people criticizing others for different opinions. So here is my opinion.
First, we are in shooting sports for fun although some seem more concerned about end of the world scenarios. Unless you are in the military, or a LEO, you are not betting your life on your equipment. If you compete, sure you want the best you can afford, especially if you aren't very good. If you don't practice to improve, I guess that maybe high quality might make up for your short-comings, but I'm not sure.
As a licenced motor vehicle mechanic for more years that some on here have been alive, I'd like to share the following. I met technicians that insisted that you had to buy Snap-on if you were going to be any good, anything else and you couldn't fix vehicles, I never owned a single Snap-on tool. They told me how Snap-on had a life time warranty, I figured I'd rather have tools that didn't break leaving me without the tool while warranty was processed. My tools had a good warranty but I never had to use it. I watched guys almost take out a mortgage for a Snap-on toolbox, and watched them cry the first time it got scratched. Me, I bought a fully functional tool box, not Snap-on, and filled it with the specialty tools (also not Snap-on) to allow me to get the job done. Early in my career, I bought a cheap air chisel for a job, I used that air chisel to make money, and after it had paid for its self many times over, I replaced it with a brand name air chisel that did the same job, but it did last a lot longer. As a matter of fact, I still have that air chisel to this day, and I also have some of the "cheap" attachments that came with the first one.
I would use the money I saved by NOT buying Snap-on to continue to buy more specialty tools as vehicles evolved, and I also used that money I saved to take courses to improve my skills.
So how does this relate? Simple. Start with a basic gun and practice until you have the skills required. You start with a 22, cheap ammo, and keep practicing. No one starts out as a marksman, but once you have learned how to aim, how to get that proper hold, learned how to squeeze that coarse trigger with all the excess travel, now is the time to practice some more. When you have the skills, then is the time to upgrade. But until you have the basic skills, no amount of money that you spend is going to make any difference. When starting out, even a piece of junk can out shoot you until you have the basic skills.
So now you buy a better gun, put optics on it, now you practice some more. As time goes on, and your skills improve, that is when you start looking at higher end equipment But I don't care how much you spent on the gun and optics, highest price match ammo, if you don't have the skills, it will be no better than the single shot Cooey with iron sights.
And as your skills develop, and you are hitting the bulls-eye at 200 yards every time, don't look over at the guy next to you with the old Cooey and start to criticize him, he knew where to start.
Remember, when the house falls down, it is a poor carpenter that blames his tools.
 
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