I plan on going this weekend to the CQB match at Borden
Have fun. I hope the Swiss is lighter than your SR-22.
The future of Service Rifle
- Thread starter Gunnerlove
- Start date
Have fun. I hope the Swiss is lighter than your SR-22.
No kidding...it attaches a very negative aspect to our sport. On a similar vane, guys who refer to their firearms as "weapons". This is the kind of B.S. the politicians love to hear from gun owners...stop it guys!!!!!!!
ranger_scout
Member
- Location
- In a woods. Try to find me
Interested for sure. No way my unit will support it, but I'll go on my own with Stumpfian.
Ranger_Scout
Ranger_Scout
sillymike
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
Taking of the PQRA would be the easy part... as it stands, I have met more Quebec guys (and gals) shooting SR at Connaught... than the PQRA has members.
If every QC SR shooter buys a card and shows up at the AGM... we could pretty much take over the org.
This beeing said, finding a place to shoot SR in Quebec is a whole different ball game!
- We need a civilian friendly base commander (and a motivated military personnel) to organize the match at one of the base (and obtain proper clearance)
- We need to convince the CFO to issu ATT for these match. There used to be (and might still exist) some animosity between the SQ and the military brass (something to do with the army not wanting to play by the QC CFO's rules)
*-*-*-*-*-*-*
As for the futur of SR, I think too many people are wasting too much time (and $$) worrying about the equipment, when in fact, they should be worried about their skills.
The army guys are still winning match with issue gun/ammo/optic... so it shouldn't matter much if John-Doe-Civie doesn't have the latest LMT/Colt/Noveske with the latest Nightforce/Acog/S&B.
SR is about learning to use your equipment... and hitting the target.
*-*-*-*-*-*-*
Now, we just need to find a way to clone Hungry and Tim
They are running one heck of a show and their excellent work are the reason why so many people are now wanting to shoot the SR match at Connaught
Heck, I'm having so much fun... that even the GF is thinking about giving it a try next season.
Taking of the PQRA would be the easy part... as it stands, I have met more Quebec guys (and gals) shooting SR at Connaught... than the PQRA has members.
If every QC SR shooter buys a card and shows up at the AGM... we could pretty much take over the org.
This beeing said, finding a place to shoot SR in Quebec is a whole different ball game!
- We need a civilian friendly base commander (and a motivated military personnel) to organize the match at one of the base (and obtain proper clearance)
- We need to convince the CFO to issu ATT for these match. There used to be (and might still exist) some animosity between the SQ and the military brass (something to do with the army not wanting to play by the QC CFO's rules)
*-*-*-*-*-*-*
As for the futur of SR, I think too many people are wasting too much time (and $$) worrying about the equipment, when in fact, they should be worried about their skills.
The army guys are still winning match with issue gun/ammo/optic... so it shouldn't matter much if John-Doe-Civie doesn't have the latest LMT/Colt/Noveske with the latest Nightforce/Acog/S&B.
SR is about learning to use your equipment... and hitting the target.
*-*-*-*-*-*-*
Now, we just need to find a way to clone Hungry and Tim
They are running one heck of a show and their excellent work are the reason why so many people are now wanting to shoot the SR match at Connaught
Heck, I'm having so much fun... that even the GF is thinking about giving it a try next season.
+1 well said
I have to agree and think you should ban the term sniper and CQB use for anything other than the real deal.
- Location
- land of f-cktards
Well here is my two cents.... and its probably all its worth falling on death ears ......or it might motivate someone to cause trouble for me like it has in the past
SR is the bread and butter for many orgs some have seen the light and are moving towards it others are not
those that are not, will likely become or already have likely become "dead weight" to certain departments....that friends is a sad thing
the history involved in SR is something that any Canadian should be proud of , its the root that all the other disciplines spring from "its ours" its "Canadian" nobody does it like us here !
I have had the privilege(and i consider it a privilege) to have been involved for about 6 years now, meeting many of you guys first hand, trading stories, experiences.
sadly CGN has done more for my involvement than any of the shooting orgs.
thanks Greentips, and Hungry.
but i also have to wonder why that is.
So this is not ment to be a slag at anyone just food for thought ......mull it over a bit.
maybe i don't have a clue
but in my view unless the RAs get involved and re establish their relationships your going to see the sport and many other disciplines die.
so if trophies or money is your motivation to be involved the cause is already lost, I know people and i am not one of them who just love doing it. (i just try to turn on as many people as i can onto it and hope they stick with it)
just read the newspapers ...united we stand....divided we fall
SR is the bread and butter for many orgs some have seen the light and are moving towards it others are not
those that are not, will likely become or already have likely become "dead weight" to certain departments....that friends is a sad thing
the history involved in SR is something that any Canadian should be proud of , its the root that all the other disciplines spring from "its ours" its "Canadian" nobody does it like us here !
I have had the privilege(and i consider it a privilege) to have been involved for about 6 years now, meeting many of you guys first hand, trading stories, experiences.
sadly CGN has done more for my involvement than any of the shooting orgs.
thanks Greentips, and Hungry.
but i also have to wonder why that is.
So this is not ment to be a slag at anyone just food for thought ......mull it over a bit.
maybe i don't have a clue
but in my view unless the RAs get involved and re establish their relationships your going to see the sport and many other disciplines die.
so if trophies or money is your motivation to be involved the cause is already lost, I know people and i am not one of them who just love doing it. (i just try to turn on as many people as i can onto it and hope they stick with it)
just read the newspapers ...united we stand....divided we fall
Now, we just need to find a way to clone Hungry and Tim
They are running one heck of a show and their excellent work are the reason why so many people are now wanting to shoot the SR match at Connaught
Heck, I'm having so much fun... that even the GF is thinking about giving it a try next season.
My wife wishes she could clone me so that I can bi-locate on all my weekend ventures to Connaught or Borden.
Cheers,
Barney
NavyShooter
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- XMU Local .303
At least a part of the problem with current service rifle matches (civilian side) has been touched on by a couple of people.
"The Arms Race."
The perception exists that you NEED to have a $$$ rifle and a $$$ scope with a blinged out $$$ whoosit on the thingamabob.
The rule years ago (and still in NSRA) is that the rifle shall have the external appearance of the equivalent military service arm. Here's the quote from the NSRA's website:
Recognizing that not everyone has access to, the desire for, nor the $$ for an Elcan, the rule for scopes was relaxed allowing any optical sight of 4X or less.
The recent trends in the "Service Rifle" crowd brings to mind the tales of "Service Rifle A" and "Service Rifle B" classifications (those with un-modified Lee Enfields, vs those with custom/tuned Enfields using PH5 sights, bedding, etc.)
The Service A/B became, eventually, a split in the organization. Fostered by the lack of availability of the FN rifle for civilian use, the shooters stuck with their Enfields, and tuned and tweaked their rifles to the point that they became Target Rifles...which is where those DCRA Enfields that we see on here from time to time harken from, but not where they ended...think of the Envoys, the L-39A1's, these rifles were the fore-bears of the modern target rifles we see at the TR matches today wtih the *** actions, etc.
The Split that happened back then seemed to have co-incided with the diversion of assets (ie the MacDonald Stewart Pavillion in Bisley) from DND to the DCRA, and the split between Civilian and Military was firmly wedged in history.
(This is my simplified take on it, as someone who's heard things on 2 sides of the pond, and talked with some older SR and TR shooters over the years. If you have more detailed/correct info, feel free to correct me.)
Well, that's some of the history. What should the way ahead be?
First. Turn off the arms race.
The matches, and equipment required to shoot them should be setup so that you don't NEED to mortgage your first-born to participate.
With 3 MOA bulls (SR standard for many years) almost any rack-grade AR-15 or equivelant can compete, and win.
Dial it back to a level playing field. Limit the scopes from the impractical 10X target scopes to 5X or less (variable optics allowed)
This way, the soldier on the line competing with his rack issue C-7A2 doesn't feel that there's no point in him competing, because that guy down the line with the "super-scope" and Stainless steel barrel is just going to demolish him.
Second. Let's do some Training.
There are few shooters who will do well at long ranges in service rifle without some training. There's a lot of folks out here who know "a thing or two" about shooting, and are more than happy to share.
A training program, perhaps based on firing with a .22 as opposed to .223 (reduced costs) using similar targetry has been proposed in the past, why not resurrect the idea, and train people before they start spending $40 on rounds for a morning of shooting, only to miss $30 worth of rounds?
Service Rifle clinics are do-able, and I've participated in them before, (and regularly with the Military team I help with) but teaching them to civilian shooters is a different game, and the training plan has to be fit into evenings, and weekends.
There is no perfect training solution, but the availability of AR-ish (think SR-22 and M&P-15) rifles in .22 rimfire has opened this idea WIDE open, compared to 10 years ago when all that existed was the Colt or Ceiner .22 drop-in conversion.
Third. Let the Newbies Win.
I've been to shoots over the years where 1, 2, and 3rd place are the same 3 people, and no matter who else comes out, it's going to be those 3 people. (When there's as many QM's lying around here in Hfx, that shouldn't be much of a surprise....but hey....I've snuck into 3rd a few times!)
Those "kicking butt" shooters who "always win" should perhaps take a step back once in a while, and instead of always competing, perhaps take a supporting role in the matches that they're at, and let some of the younger/newer shooters take a taste of the winner's circle. I'm not saying to drop a few shots to make them feel better, I'm suggesting instead standing behind the line, no rifle in hand, and maybe offer some coaching advice to the shooters instead of shooting yourself.
If you help build them, they'll keep coming back.
If you keep beating them, they won't come back.
Those are a couple (albeit long-winded) ideas that you guys can hash about.
NS
"The Arms Race."
The perception exists that you NEED to have a $$$ rifle and a $$$ scope with a blinged out $$$ whoosit on the thingamabob.
The rule years ago (and still in NSRA) is that the rifle shall have the external appearance of the equivalent military service arm. Here's the quote from the NSRA's website:
Recognizing that not everyone has access to, the desire for, nor the $$ for an Elcan, the rule for scopes was relaxed allowing any optical sight of 4X or less.
The recent trends in the "Service Rifle" crowd brings to mind the tales of "Service Rifle A" and "Service Rifle B" classifications (those with un-modified Lee Enfields, vs those with custom/tuned Enfields using PH5 sights, bedding, etc.)
The Service A/B became, eventually, a split in the organization. Fostered by the lack of availability of the FN rifle for civilian use, the shooters stuck with their Enfields, and tuned and tweaked their rifles to the point that they became Target Rifles...which is where those DCRA Enfields that we see on here from time to time harken from, but not where they ended...think of the Envoys, the L-39A1's, these rifles were the fore-bears of the modern target rifles we see at the TR matches today wtih the *** actions, etc.
The Split that happened back then seemed to have co-incided with the diversion of assets (ie the MacDonald Stewart Pavillion in Bisley) from DND to the DCRA, and the split between Civilian and Military was firmly wedged in history.
(This is my simplified take on it, as someone who's heard things on 2 sides of the pond, and talked with some older SR and TR shooters over the years. If you have more detailed/correct info, feel free to correct me.)
Well, that's some of the history. What should the way ahead be?
First. Turn off the arms race.
The matches, and equipment required to shoot them should be setup so that you don't NEED to mortgage your first-born to participate.
With 3 MOA bulls (SR standard for many years) almost any rack-grade AR-15 or equivelant can compete, and win.
Dial it back to a level playing field. Limit the scopes from the impractical 10X target scopes to 5X or less (variable optics allowed)
This way, the soldier on the line competing with his rack issue C-7A2 doesn't feel that there's no point in him competing, because that guy down the line with the "super-scope" and Stainless steel barrel is just going to demolish him.
Second. Let's do some Training.
There are few shooters who will do well at long ranges in service rifle without some training. There's a lot of folks out here who know "a thing or two" about shooting, and are more than happy to share.
A training program, perhaps based on firing with a .22 as opposed to .223 (reduced costs) using similar targetry has been proposed in the past, why not resurrect the idea, and train people before they start spending $40 on rounds for a morning of shooting, only to miss $30 worth of rounds?
Service Rifle clinics are do-able, and I've participated in them before, (and regularly with the Military team I help with) but teaching them to civilian shooters is a different game, and the training plan has to be fit into evenings, and weekends.
There is no perfect training solution, but the availability of AR-ish (think SR-22 and M&P-15) rifles in .22 rimfire has opened this idea WIDE open, compared to 10 years ago when all that existed was the Colt or Ceiner .22 drop-in conversion.
Third. Let the Newbies Win.
I've been to shoots over the years where 1, 2, and 3rd place are the same 3 people, and no matter who else comes out, it's going to be those 3 people. (When there's as many QM's lying around here in Hfx, that shouldn't be much of a surprise....but hey....I've snuck into 3rd a few times!)
Those "kicking butt" shooters who "always win" should perhaps take a step back once in a while, and instead of always competing, perhaps take a supporting role in the matches that they're at, and let some of the younger/newer shooters take a taste of the winner's circle. I'm not saying to drop a few shots to make them feel better, I'm suggesting instead standing behind the line, no rifle in hand, and maybe offer some coaching advice to the shooters instead of shooting yourself.
If you help build them, they'll keep coming back.
If you keep beating them, they won't come back.
Those are a couple (albeit long-winded) ideas that you guys can hash about.
NS
sillymike
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
Tim and Hungry are actually onto something... medals are given to the winners of the various events, while "prizes" are drawn... with the last number in the pot winning
NavyShooter
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- XMU Local .303
Sorry, that shoulda read "Let the newbies win SOMETIMES" ;-)
NS
NS
The new CFSAC style competition is so popular becaue we are putting more rounds downrange and there are things to do all the time - people like to shoot instead of listening to people yapping. We go to the range to shoot, not to get there to get bored of pulling targets and falling asleep behind the firing points.
If you keep people busy and let them put bullets down range, they could careless who it is wining. It is the classic "WHAT IS IT IN FOR ME" question. After driving 2 hours to the range, my value meter is based on the the number of shots I gotta fire......I am not going to come back if I only shot 50 rounds for the entire weekend. I may as well go to my home club ....it is closer and I gotta shoot more.
If you keep people busy and let them put bullets down range, they could careless who it is wining. It is the classic "WHAT IS IT IN FOR ME" question. After driving 2 hours to the range, my value meter is based on the the number of shots I gotta fire......I am not going to come back if I only shot 50 rounds for the entire weekend. I may as well go to my home club ....it is closer and I gotta shoot more.
Navy Shooter hit the nail on the head!! Guys with space guns, how can the average guy compete with that without mortgaging the house? If I was a new guy it would take maybe twice of these guys handing me my ass and I would say #### it. Why come out to watch the same 3 guys win everything? My personal SR rifle has iron sights on it and I do okay with it. Old SR 1-12 I shot 478. An elitest club of SR shooters is not what SR shooters want or maybe it is but I doubt it. We want more people involved in our passion and sport. So let's get out and shoot!!!!
- Location
- currently downrange
Don't undervalue training and fitness in SR. Look at the results this year at NSCC. Several matches were won by LFWA soldiers firing issue C7s and 9mm BHPs against high speed kit and very good civilian shooters (mostly from the OSA).
Civilians pretty much dominated the deliberates with highly tuned rifles while the soldiers did very well in the rundowns, snaps, etc. Results are on the DCRA site. It was competitive, fun, and good value for the time/money.
DCRA introduced some great matches (13-16 at 400m) and ran the trad ones as well. Hats off to Keith and crew.
Civilians pretty much dominated the deliberates with highly tuned rifles while the soldiers did very well in the rundowns, snaps, etc. Results are on the DCRA site. It was competitive, fun, and good value for the time/money.
DCRA introduced some great matches (13-16 at 400m) and ran the trad ones as well. Hats off to Keith and crew.
- Location
- Ottawa, Ontario
havent shot SR yet but ive been shooting CQB the last two years, but im thinking im going to give SR a try.... soo YES let the noobies win
The biggest issue for me personally isn't the cost of the rifle, but rather the cost of the ammunition. I can afford a Norinco M4 or M14, and know that I can compete with it.
Although I can understand the mentality of "I'm not driving 2 hours to bang out 50 rounds," I've heard some pretty daunting round counts bandied about for these shoots. Simply put, I can't afford to go to a shoot and put hundreds of rounds through my gun.
Although I can understand the mentality of "I'm not driving 2 hours to bang out 50 rounds," I've heard some pretty daunting round counts bandied about for these shoots. Simply put, I can't afford to go to a shoot and put hundreds of rounds through my gun.
Unfortunately, spending thousands of dollars on a fancy rifle will not get the shooter anywhere unless one spends equal amount of investment on shooting the rifle.
SR is already forgiving -one can dry fire to get a lot of practise out of it. Unlike the short range stuff that one has to conduct live fire alot regularly to perfect(and upkeep) tapping and engaging multiple targets.
NavyShooter
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- XMU Local .303
GT,
That's true, unfortunately, the PERCEPTION is often that to "play the game" there must be a massive outlay of funds for a Suber bling rifle.
In truth, the shooters at the top are at the top because they are very very good. The fancy rifles give them a tiny edge over their fellow competitors.
We looked at this a couple of years ago, (me and a couple of other senior shooters) and we compared scores/platforms.
Generally, out of 150.30 on the Deliberates, a "super gunner" was getting around 149.25-ish. A C-7A1/A2 shooter was getting about 146.18-ish.
The difference in score shows as only a couple of points. And really, if those shooting the "Super guns" went to a platform equivelant to the C-7 shooters, their score might drop 2-3 points and 5-7 V-bulls. Ish.
A high end shooter with high end gear is gaining a miniscule advantage. (1%)
But.
The shooters who don't have the fancy guns and gear don't see that.
They see that these guys show up with their fancy $3000+ tricked out rifles and shoot these amazing scores, that the poor guy with neither the experience, nor the kit realizes only makes a tiny difference....his perspective is that the guy with the big gun has bought his way into the awards, and that will have one of two affects.
1. Poor new guy doesn't come back.
or....
2. Poor new guy goes and blows a load of $$$ trying to buy the kit to "level the field" without having the skills to use it. He still gets his butt kicked, even with his fancy kit, he can't figure out why, gets frustrated, and becomes the guy in option #1.
How many potential shooters are we driving away because of the "Arms Race" that has been permitted to enter service rifle?
Many years ago, when everyone was using, effectively a stock AR-15 or C-7, it was quite clear to all that it wasn't the rifle that won the match. It was the man behind the rifle.
The Arms Race has watered down the way an individual's skill is viewed to impact the results. The view is now clouded by the perception that the shooters are winning because they are shooting better equipment.
NS
That's true, unfortunately, the PERCEPTION is often that to "play the game" there must be a massive outlay of funds for a Suber bling rifle.
In truth, the shooters at the top are at the top because they are very very good. The fancy rifles give them a tiny edge over their fellow competitors.
We looked at this a couple of years ago, (me and a couple of other senior shooters) and we compared scores/platforms.
Generally, out of 150.30 on the Deliberates, a "super gunner" was getting around 149.25-ish. A C-7A1/A2 shooter was getting about 146.18-ish.
The difference in score shows as only a couple of points. And really, if those shooting the "Super guns" went to a platform equivelant to the C-7 shooters, their score might drop 2-3 points and 5-7 V-bulls. Ish.
A high end shooter with high end gear is gaining a miniscule advantage. (1%)
But.
The shooters who don't have the fancy guns and gear don't see that.
They see that these guys show up with their fancy $3000+ tricked out rifles and shoot these amazing scores, that the poor guy with neither the experience, nor the kit realizes only makes a tiny difference....his perspective is that the guy with the big gun has bought his way into the awards, and that will have one of two affects.
1. Poor new guy doesn't come back.
or....
2. Poor new guy goes and blows a load of $$$ trying to buy the kit to "level the field" without having the skills to use it. He still gets his butt kicked, even with his fancy kit, he can't figure out why, gets frustrated, and becomes the guy in option #1.
How many potential shooters are we driving away because of the "Arms Race" that has been permitted to enter service rifle?
Many years ago, when everyone was using, effectively a stock AR-15 or C-7, it was quite clear to all that it wasn't the rifle that won the match. It was the man behind the rifle.
The Arms Race has watered down the way an individual's skill is viewed to impact the results. The view is now clouded by the perception that the shooters are winning because they are shooting better equipment.
NS
- Location
- currently downrange
lies, damned lies, and statistics
Interesting stats from the NSCC score board this year and just things to think about. I'll let them speak for themselves:
See two pictures on the DCRA main web site which shows the guns used by the Open Class winner and the CF/RCMP winner.
http://www.dcra.ca/welcome.htm
Comparing just the two winner's scores
Match 1-12 agg:
Open (Richard P) - 565.048
CF - (Kyle R) - 544.025
Match 1-16 agg:
Open (RP) - 748.075
CF (KR) - 716.032
Deliberate Agg:
Open (RP) - 194.021
CF (KR) - 193.014
Fire and Move agg:
Open (RP) - 180.011
CF (KR) - 178.004
Grand agg:
Open (RP) - 930.085
CF (KR) - 886.042
Of the top ten in the final agg;
6 were CF
3 were tyros
6 shot NSCC only 2 times or less
only two open class shooters beat the top CF competitor who used an issued C7A2
only one was shooting a non-AR based platform (swiss arms)
only one was a Queen's Medalist (x2)
Examine the stats yourself to see that anyone can train and put themselves at the top of that list with SR superstars if they really want to.
http://www.dcra.ca/NSCC/NSCC%202010%20Service%20Rifle%20for%20website.pdf
Interesting stats from the NSCC score board this year and just things to think about. I'll let them speak for themselves:
See two pictures on the DCRA main web site which shows the guns used by the Open Class winner and the CF/RCMP winner.
http://www.dcra.ca/welcome.htm
Comparing just the two winner's scores
Match 1-12 agg:
Open (Richard P) - 565.048
CF - (Kyle R) - 544.025
Match 1-16 agg:
Open (RP) - 748.075
CF (KR) - 716.032
Deliberate Agg:
Open (RP) - 194.021
CF (KR) - 193.014
Fire and Move agg:
Open (RP) - 180.011
CF (KR) - 178.004
Grand agg:
Open (RP) - 930.085
CF (KR) - 886.042
Of the top ten in the final agg;
6 were CF
3 were tyros
6 shot NSCC only 2 times or less
only two open class shooters beat the top CF competitor who used an issued C7A2
only one was shooting a non-AR based platform (swiss arms)
only one was a Queen's Medalist (x2)
Examine the stats yourself to see that anyone can train and put themselves at the top of that list with SR superstars if they really want to.
http://www.dcra.ca/NSCC/NSCC%202010%20Service%20Rifle%20for%20website.pdf
