The future of Service Rifle

How often do you shoot Service Rifle matches

  • Never have

    Votes: 174 58.0%

  • It has been years

    Votes: 34 11.3%

  • Once a year

    Votes: 19 6.3%

  • Twice a year

    Votes: 17 5.7%

  • More than 2 a year

    Votes: 56 18.7%
  • Total voters
    300
NavyShooter said:
GT,

That's true, unfortunately, the PERCEPTION is often that to "play the game" there must be a massive outlay of funds for a Suber bling rifle.

In truth, the shooters at the top are at the top because they are very very good. The fancy rifles give them a tiny edge over their fellow competitors.

We looked at this a couple of years ago, (me and a couple of other senior shooters) and we compared scores/platforms

A high end shooter with high end gear is gaining a miniscule advantage. (1%)

But.

The shooters who don't have the fancy guns and gear don't see that.

They see that these guys show up with their fancy $3000+ tricked out rifles and shoot these amazing scores, that the poor guy with neither the experience, nor the kit realizes only makes a tiny difference....his perspective is that the guy with the big gun has bought his way into the awards, and that will have one of two affects.

1. Poor new guy doesn't come back.

or....

2. Poor new guy goes and blows a load of $$$ trying to buy the kit to "level the field" without having the skills to use it. He still gets his butt kicked, even with his fancy kit, he can't figure out why, gets frustrated, and becomes the guy in option #1.

How many potential shooters are we driving away because of the "Arms Race" that has been permitted to enter service rifle?

Many years ago, when everyone was using, effectively a stock AR-15 or C-7, it was quite clear to all that it wasn't the rifle that won the match. It was the man behind the rifle.

The Arms Race has watered down the way an individual's skill is viewed to impact the results. The view is now clouded by the perception that the shooters are winning because they are shooting better equipment.

NS
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It's because it's easier to blame the equipment for a win (or loss) than to blame yourself........at least for most people.
 
diamondcutter13 said:
Interesting stats from the NSCC score board this year and just things to think about. I'll let them speak for themselves:

See two pictures on the DCRA main web site which shows the guns used by the Open Class winner and the CF/RCMP winner.
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The old match 1-12 do favour space guns more becasue they are much more static with way less endurance required. Funny thing Richard P showed up with a brand new C8 HBFT with LaRue FF handard + leupold 1.5 -5 MR at CFSAC - he tried so hard to keep his carbine hidden in a bag all the time, away from our eyes.

But no one can fool the gunnuts here....

That shows us, if we all have the choice, the optimum weapon to bring to the old matches vs the new matches.
 
greentips said:
The old match 1-12 do favour space guns more becasue they are much more static with way less endurance required. Funny thing Richard P showed up with a brand new C8 HBFT with LaRue FF handard + leupold 1.5 -5 MR at CFSAC - he tried so hard to keep his carbine hidden in a bag all the time, away from our eyes.

But no one can fool the gunnuts here....

That shows us, if we all have the choice, the optimum weapon to bring to the old matches vs the new matches.
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Although stats show that Kyle was only a few points off on the deliberate and rundown aggs, difference must've been snaps and rapids. Compensator's effect?

They are both incredible shooters and deserved the chairing off. Well done.
 
My last NSCC experience was a couple years back, and I was dredging numbers from the back corner of my brain, rather than sifting through this year's numbers, as I wasn't present for NSCC. (Trying to get 16 days off from work was hard enough...trying for 25 would have been impossible!)

I've also been busy calculating Parts Per Million Doses for stuff like sodium metabisulfite, sulfur dioxide, phosgene, chlorine....etc. The joys of a 6B course taking up my mind!

NS
 
NavyShooter said:
My last NSCC experience was a couple years back, and I was dredging numbers from the back corner of my brain, rather than sifting through this year's numbers, as I wasn't present for NSCC. (Trying to get 16 days off from work was hard enough...trying for 25 would have been impossible!)

I've also been busy calculating Parts Per Million Doses for stuff like sodium metabisulfite, sulfur dioxide, phosgene, chlorine....etc. The joys of a 6B course taking up my mind!

NS
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That makes my brain hurt just reading it.

The stats are only the top shooters in each category. The real story I think is the top ten shooters in the grand agg. Lots of tyros and CF guys with normal guns which I think proves the point that training and good coaching make all the difference in the world, not equipment. Richard and Keith are going to be near the top of that list even if they bring an old musket.
 
Richard and Keith are going to be near the top of that list even if they bring an old musket.
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now that would be cool to see

as i recall ton45 did very well with an m305 and a long eye relief scope in the past...hardly a space gun and i think he had commercial ammo as well

personally I think there should be a cap on optics just for the psych factor alone otherwise it should be ok for Cf to bring out com c7 cts or sr25s
 
A cap on optics is going in the direction of exclusivity, and just because the army is stuck with the Elcan shouldn't mean I have to too! ;)
In any type of competition, competitors are going to gravitate toward what works best for the given task - it's evolution at work. Changing up the matches may be more beneficial, maybe with a bit more close in stuff, baricade strong side/week side and the like - it could level the playing field to a stock SR setup and maybe be more attractive to guys that are inclined to purchase M4gerys, etc.

At the National level, SR guys need to step up into the DCRA...(sorry, if I was in Ontario I'd raise my hand).
Courses of fire and firm dates for the annual event need to happen at the start of the calender year at the latest if you are going to attract civilians outside of a few hundred miles of the match.
 
I really don't see the need for limits on optics.

If you want to have more people shooting:
1) take a buddy
2) hold half matches so people don't have to commit so much time
3) more SR intro courses at local clubs
 
I like the idea of running half matches.
You would learn more by running through the 200m (300m or 500m) matches a few times than by doing 1-12 in a day. It would also let you compare score from your first of the day to the last.
 
With small groups it is easy to do what you want and shift the focus of a practice as needed.

It was interesting to sit and have dinner with members of the National Guard Marksmanship Unit here in Little Rock. They have some interesting ideas for matches and training.
 
Enough with the kissy-face! :puke:

GL, can you give us some details about the training ideas you've have been chatting about with the National Guard? New info is always good.
 
As far as training goes it sounded much like what Longshot and Ken Ferguson have suggested to me. Start training in close (25m) and only move back when you are keeping all rounds on target in all positions. If you are missing you are training yourself to miss. For individual training once you are back of 100m steel targets are the go to target for the instant feed back and no need for target pullers. Once you get back to 200m, with all rounds on target and grouped in the center start practicing getting into shooting positions and firing one shot at a time. Only then start running snap and rapid practices in all positions with a focus on only firing good shots (if it feels bad don't squeeze the trigger). Move into scored matches and start winning.
You need to master 200m before you move back. If you can shoot well at 200m you can shoot well at 500m. All you need to do is learn to read wind and mirage (the easy stuff ;).

As for matches, how about a timed falling plates match where you run from 300 to 200, fire one shot then run back to 300 to pick up your next round. Then back to 200, repeat until your plates (10) are down. Can be run as a team match or individual (if someone needs some corrective PT).

I think it would be good for spectators and a real test of shooters.

They also had a bunch of stuff that was far more team and military oriented (I need to keep some suprises).
 
Gunnerlove said:
As far as training goes it sounded much like what Longshot and Ken Ferguson have suggested to me. Start training in close (25m) and only move back when you are keeping all rounds on target in all positions. If you are missing you are training yourself to miss. For individual training once you are back of 100m steel targets are the go to target for the instant feed back and no need for target pullers. Once you get back to 200m, with all rounds on target and grouped in the center start practicing getting into shooting positions and firing one shot at a time. Only then start running snap and rapid practices in all positions with a focus on only firing good shots (if it feels bad don't squeeze the trigger). Move into scored matches and start winning.
You need to master 200m before you move back. If you can shoot well at 200m you can shoot well at 500m. All you need to do is learn to read wind and mirage (the easy stuff ;).
Click to expand...

Hmmm, I should volunteer myself as a test subject for this style of training and see where it can lead. I've only had ~200 rounds down my new M4 so hopefully I don't have any bad training habits.. yet. :redface:
 
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