The new NR NoDak Spud NDS 18SC
- Thread starter IRUNGUNS
- Start date
Can we take a moment to appreciate how cool the OG charging handle is. Really like that Brownells stuck with it for their BRN line.
brownbear53
CGN Regular
- Location
- Vancouver, BC
Its giving "pull here to yeet" vibes
Your supposed examples of an earlier version of the AR18/180 multi-part Gas-Piston design are dubious at best. Last I checked, every one of those Short-Stroke Gas Systems that you named has a single-piece (or at best, a 2-piece) Piston akin to the WK180, that is accessed by the removal of a Gas Plug from the Gas Block (screw-in like the SVT-40, or mechanical retention like the FN-49 and FAL). Those are not the same, distinctive, self-Regulating, 3-piece Piston System innovated by the AR18/180's Short-Stroke Gas System, which is disassembled not by the removal of a Gas Plug, but by collapsing it's length against spring-tension. There is no removable Gas Plug necessary with the AR18/18's, Self-Regulating Gas System design.
The AR18/180 3-piece Gas Piston was more than just an evolutionary iteration of the single-piece Gas Piston found in the FAL, et-al. It launched an entire branch of modern firearms design using the 3-piece Piston,and Self-Regulating Gas Block design of the AR18/180. The HK G36, HK 416, Enfield L85A2, and PSA Jakl designs all spring immediately to mind. So, I reckon you and I will simply have to disagree on the importance assigned to the AR18/180's innovative 3-piece Short-Stroke Piston System.
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I’m enjoying the nerdy piston history and both of the main sides are right in ways
Svt/avt rifles are the daddy of the piston systems we all see these days and the ar180 made that mainstream
I’m very interested in this jakyl idea.. seems it’s doable with the receivers being made before the new laws
Or were they made?
Svt/avt rifles are the daddy of the piston systems we all see these days and the ar180 made that mainstream
I’m very interested in this jakyl idea.. seems it’s doable with the receivers being made before the new laws
Or were they made?
KotKotofeich
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Ottawa Valley
Um... you both are getting limited by not having access to some of those (Horilka to the FAL I suppose but you - I'm surprised you don't have a SVT in your collection) because the SVT totally uses the multi-piece piston and gets disassembled without removing the gas plug... Take a look at this video https://youtu.be/sC8A72XNHcA?feature=shared&t=63 Or did you mean something else?
Nope, I don't have an SVT and haven't owned one in long enough to have completely forgotten how its Gas System is configured. I sold off a very thorough WW1 and 2 collection of Commonwealth, US, German and Russian SMGs and Rifles to finance a family trip to Orlando back in the mid-2000's. I also had a more limited selection of Italian, French and Japanese WW 1 and 2 weapons, limited to selected rifles. In any case, it all went to finance that trip to Disney World, Seaworld, et-al. The selling prices for very nice milsurps back then would make you cry today!
I will stand corrected on the SVT-40, but not the FAL or its FN49 precursor. Those single-piece short-stroke pistons do not feature the same multi-piece construction for ease of disassembly, nor are they self-regulating like the AR18/180 (they both have externally-adjusted Gas Regulators for that specific purpose).
Maybe i missed some info in 123 pages, but am I the only one who misses plastic or wood furniture on modern rifles? 1 rail should be sufficient right on top for optics. Tactical rails and telescoping stocks on everything new to come out is cheesy at best for the Canadian civilian shooter, in my opinion.My question is how hard is it to manufacture plastic or wood stock sets?
Awesome, get it done, please!
K1LLswitch
CGN Regular
- Location
- Calgary, Alberta
Nice! Good luck. You will have a lot of orders if it happens.
[nerdy talk on]
So it seems that you consider AR-18/180 system outstanding for three main reasons: multi-piece construction, "self-regulation", no need for gas plug removal.
Before I address these I would like to clarify what I meant to say when I mentioned "SVT-38/40, Kar.43, FN-49 and the FN FAL". I meant to say these rifles represent development of "short-stroke" gas system and in summary used ALL DESIGN ELEMENTS that then appeared in AR-18/180. I did not mean that every and each rifle from that list has very similar system.
Now, allow me address the items you consider as unique or outstanding features of AR18 system.
1. Mutli-piece design. The only purpose of AR-18/180 having additional piece between piston and op-rod is to facilitate disassembly. Exactly the same idea (rod + rod extension) was used in SVT-38/40 and then copied into G43. So, just a version of well-known design. In SVT it is rod extension + rod + cylinder + piston, in AR18 it's rod + rod extension (called "rod link" in original manual) + cylinder + piston. Swapping the places of rod and rod link is not revolutionary at all.
2. Self-regulation. You probably mean those vent holes in the piston by "self-regulation"? I would personally call it "excessive gas venting" or simply "gas venting" feature. Indeed SVT-38/40 is lacking this feature in production version, instead it's compensated by manual regulation. However G43 already has it. To my shame I don't know who/when first introduced excessive gas venting into gas operated firearm, however I know that before AR-18/180 it was present at least in following short stroke piston systems: G43 and SKS-45. So, again, nothing unique, just a variant of existing and proven design.
3. Both SVT and G43 don't require gas key/plug removal for gas system disassembly.
If anything AR18 gas system is G43 gas system with rod and extension swapped places.
[nerdy talk off]
Well, as I said, I think that rather than address each of your points in order with pedantic and tiresome detail, we are best to simply agree to disagree and move on. I don't believe that I ever claimed that the AR-180 was the first and only successful short-stroke piston design, the point I was trying to make was that the AR18/180 was the first short-stroke piston system to bundle ALL 3 of my reasons together into one successful package. There is a reason that the AR-18 operating system was emulated on a go-forward basis into some of the most successful short-stroke small arms designs of the late 20th and early 21st Centuries. At that point in time it was the most advanced example of the short--stroke system in existence. The AR18/180 may have been a military and commercial sales failure, but in terms of meeting its design objective of a simple rifle readily manufactured by emerging nations lacking the sophisticated and expensive forging technology required by the M16/AR15? Well, it was actually a tremendous success. Hence the widespread duplication in many successful Western small arms designs thereafter.
Can you see if you an do a video on the prototype with TFB Showtime? James is both a gun nut and a firearms lawyer, and a video on a Jakl 180 to work within our gun laws would tickle his fancy, plus he might talk about other AR-15 hostile markets like New York finding a 180 Jakl useful. We can the provide positive reinforcement en masse in the comments.
The JAKL is a long stroke push rod - It is more similar to the X95 and Carmel than the AR18 short stroke push rod system.
The only thing it is similar to the AR18 and therefore AR15 is the multi-lug rotating bolt that uses the barrel extension to lock up.
I guess it's American-centric point of view I would never understand. Not everything came from America. And AR-18/180 was not first system that combined all 3 features, as I explained above, if anything G43 was the first one I know (and my knowledge is limited, so there might be others). So, in our "let's agree to disagree" it's historically and technically not correct to say that AR-18/180 design was emulated. Much earlier design were emulated. AR-18/180 gas system is a minor iteration that did not bring anything really new. Moreover, outside of America few designers ever cared about such a minor project from USA, while there is a plethora of proven and battle tested designs out there.
P.S. That's funny, I decided to watch video on the history of Ar18/180 and guess what, apparently Ian is of exactly same opinion as I: "They go for a short-stroke gas system, very much like German G43 and Soviet SVT-40".
https:// youtu. be/sRYPM-sKW74?t=167
In his recent video on SVT-40
https:// youtu. be/D5gXify4scA?t=931
".. gas system... which is actually is one of the most copied of all gas systems. Tokarev is a progenitor of like most of our gas piston rifles today. .. The AR-18 as well as Gewehr 43 both copied SVT-38 system.."
as if like both me and Ian read same books in childhood, or, maybe it's a commonly known facts.
P.P.S. Also funny that we have this discussion in the thread about PSA JAKL that doesn't have short-stroke system, as greentips correctly mentioned above... I guess it's a fate of all topics on CGN - so stray away from subject.
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More nerd talk, I like seeing our members have real knowledge and opinions about things vs all asking for a version of a gun that takes pinned drum in 22mm cannon but with a folding stock and a 1.3” barrel that’s still NR and other nonsense
