The old 165gr vs 180gr .30-06 thread...

[28 gauge]

When hunting I used the 180 grain.Now that just shoot paper with the 30 Gov't 06, I use 165 grain bullets.I hand load and usually find 165 grain bullets easier to find.

 

[Potashminer]

I do still suggest to people here that if they have one rifle for hunting in Western Canada, then probably a 22" or 24" 30-06, with a 4x, 6x, 2-7x, 3-9x scope will do them fine. But not so much if you have two or more. Up to 165 grain bullets, a 308 Win pretty well neck and neck with 30-06. For 180 and more weight, I would chose a 308 Norma Mag or 300 Win Mag. Then get a "coyote" rifle - 22-250, 243 Win, etc. Then get a 338 Win Mag. And it does not seem to quit, once past having just one rifle for everything.

 

[Demonical]

Loaded 5 rounds 54.4grs H-4350 yesterday and fired them today.

MV = 2592, 2585, 2582, 2581 and the dang odd one 2548... for avg 2577.6fps mv.

I thought it was odd that velocity was slightly lower than the 54.2gr load? Is that temp affect? It was +2C when I fired that 54.2gr load and -2C today, when I fired off the 54.4gr load.





This is a 5-shot group. 1-1/8"?

I was a dummy and grabbed the target to remove it (instead of grabbing the pliers) and I tore the paper...

 

[chuck nelson]

You need a couple hundred more FPS.

 

[Demonical]

Do I?

If the accuracy further improved then sure. But if the velocity increase messes with accuracy then no sir.

Of course I'm not content just yet, but this is starting to be acceptable (to me).

Edit: I loaded 5 with 54.9grs H-4350. Gonna fire them tomorrow.

I will provide results then.

 

[WhelanLad]

Do I?

If the accuracy further improved then sure. But if the velocity increase messes with accuracy then no sir.

Of course I'm not content just yet, but this is starting to be acceptable (to me).

Edit: I loaded 5 with 54.9grs H-4350. Gonna fire them tomorrow.

I will provide results then.

interesting results from today.

Only you can answer the Question above....... i feel im somewhat in your shoe aswell with my 06 an what its doing.

what is the horse doing on what sorta course???



so you think seating depth has been the difference? slowly stoke powder up or feeling OK with results?

 

[legi0n]

I usually load 56gr H4350 with 180BTSP
velocity at 2800fps in 22" barrel
but the Federal brass doesn't last long at these pressures (the primer pockets expand)

 

[Grey_Wolf]

StaBALL 6.5 is pretty great, 165's at 2930+ out of my 22" Model 70. Easily MOA. With the FWT contour and plain Beech stock it does rattle fillings, but the gun loves this load with SSTs. For a one-load hunter I'd probably look at something in the 180 grain offerings as well but see what I could get with StaBALL as the propellant, I'd imagine 2800+ would be easy-peasy and will have a pretty dramatic effect on target.

Interesting. I had a chance to grab 10 lbs of Staball and passed. Never thought about using it in the '06. Then again I have a good load with 165 or 168 grain bullets, actually two. My son's gun likes IMR4350 and mine goes for IMR4831. I could not get heavier bullets to shoot good in either gun so stuck with the 165's, big enough for anything I am shooting

 

[Demonical]

interesting results from today.

Only you can answer the Question above....... i feel im somewhat in your shoe aswell with my 06 an what its doing.

what is the horse doing on what sorta course???



so you think seating depth has been the difference? slowly stoke powder up or feeling OK with results?

I confess complete ignorance on seating depth other than an awareness that all cartridges have a 'mythical optimum' seating depth, and yes for each cartridge I load, I have seen the data. In 25 years of reloading I have never messed with seating depth at all, just basically used whatever factory cartridges were seated to. I'm serious. Not a single time.

I couldn't even explain how to measure the chamber to determine distance to the lands.
I've read how to do it, seems way too complicated and doesn't seem like anything I need to do. *Ahem*...

So to be honest, I have never fussed it, have never used it as an adjustment. Yes the other day I took the time to move the seating die out, which produced a 3.333" c.o.a.l. with my .30-06. Which was still well short of the 3.3400" c.o.a.l. the .30-06 is supposed to be designed to.

Basically what happened was I looked at that bullet seated like that, and the Hornady 180gr BTSP has a crimp ring around the bullet, and it was seated well short of that crimp ring. While there was still lots of bearing surface on the bullet, it just looked wrong to me.

So I said the heck with messing with (something I know nothing about) and just adjusted the die until the bullet was seated out to where it the crimp ring was flush with the case mouth. That looks 'correct' to me, and measured 3.225" c.o.a.l..

Then with that out of the way, I just looked at my previous results, and compared to (Nosler) load data. It was apparent (as you said) that I had lots of room to increase muzzle velocity, and also, each powder weight increase my groups had tightened just a bit each time.

So as I said, I have bumped it another 0.5grs up to 54.9grs. I am aware that 56.5 to 57.0grs is not considered excessive for the .30-06 with a 180gr bullet with H-4350, so still lots of 'wiggle room' (I hope/think).

And as you said, I could use another 200fps mv. I would not argue that, as long as the accuracy is there mate!

And I'm a total O.C.D. a**hole and refuse to look at a 3-shot group... anybody can fire a 1/2" 3-shot group. I always work on 5-shot groups. When I can get a 5-shot group 1" or less, I know it's that's a decent accurate load. If somebody starts to tell me about a 3-shot group I don't care mate.

The 1-1/8" 5-shot group I fired today is either absolute garbage, or awfully good, depending on which 'expert' you talk to.

Going to hit the range tomorrow morning and by God I hope 'I can do my part', as they say...

Whatever my results, good or bad, I will post them tomorrow.


Jim

 

[WhelanLad]

yeah copy this , that is even more interesting ha ha!

im glad you found the Cannelure on the BTSP , that is always a good start though! i think the cannelure is short though due to the 300 win mag is it not??


anyway- keen to hear how ya get on!
it rained here all weekend, i almost loaded up some 180BTSP Vargets myself but i really am jumping the gun yet!

cheers mate

ps- i didnt say about to much more fps.. accuracy trumps, yet i mentioned horses for courses ya might want more fps if yer pokin a long one, but if yer generally nilly nallying about the place with said 30-06 in close, well whats 200 fps.... enjoy

 

[Demonical]

Amen mate!

I prefer to shoot deer at 20 yards! The closer the better for me. But there's definitely some chance to have to take a 300 yard shot, so once I'm settled on my load, I'm gonna do some 300 yard shooting to determine trajectory.

I don't know if you saw that I had a bad deal on a wolf back in Nov 2021?

That day I had the .300H&H, and had it sighted in to dead-on at 100 yards. I was supposed to remember that and hold over, if I got a long-ish shot. Course I forgot, held right on the wolfs chest and shot under it (at laser measured 265 yards).

 

[yomomma]

Keep up the good work.

Since I bought a 308 I have relegated my 30-06 to the 180 and above.

Got some nice nosler partitions and some IMR4350. Have yet to choose brass and primers. Probably go with Win primers. Have some LC brass but may end up using Win brass, been saving that stuff for the last 30 years

 

[Demonical]

Just back from the range, I fired off the 5 180 Hornadys that I loaded yesterday (54.9grs H-4350 and the 180gr BTSP).

Results were 'meh'...






This load avg'd 2593fps and as you can see the group is nothing to write home about!

52.5grs H4350 with the 180gr Hornady BTSP avg'd 2436fps.
53.7grs H4350 with the 180gr Hornady BTSP avg'd 2533fps.
54.2grs H4350 with the 180gr Hornady BTSP avg'd 2589fps.
54.4grs H4350 with the 180gr Hornady BTSP avg'd 2577fps. Most accurate load so far.
54.9grs H4350 with the 180gr Hornady BTSP avg'd 2593fps.

So from 52.5 to 54.9grs I have gained 157fps avg...

I could crank the powder up another 1.0 to 1.5 grs and try to bust through 2700fps, or just drop back and frig around with 54.4, 54.6, 54.6 etc...

I'm thinking that gaining an extra 100-150fps (since I am just under 2600fps at these loads) isn't really going to make a lot of difference at 300 yards. Maybe 1" to 1.5" difference?

I'm leaning toward more experimenting with 54.4, 54.6, 54.6 etc...

 

[Demonical]

I looked up this ballistic calculator just for ####s n giggles...

This thing is great by the way.

Plug in initial muzzle velocity, and *presto*, instantly calculates theoretical drop out to whatever range you think you can shoot to. I'm kind of a 300 yard guy myself.

My longest measured shot ever was 328yds, on a whitetail buck, for the record.

Anyway, inputting numbers, at 2585fps mv a 180gr .30-06 bullet drops 16.06" at 300 yards.
At 2750fps the drop is 13.75", so as I thought, it's not a helluva lot.

2.31" difference is all.

https://shooterscalculator.com/ball...t/s&lbl=[Chart+Label]&submitst=+Create+Graph+

 

[chuck nelson]

Seating depth is far more critical than powder charge and the notion that velocity is detrimental to accuracy is a curious one. I don’t find it to be the case very often. You have a 30-06, use it to its potential. If it’s accuracy at that velocity you want, use a 308.

 

[Demonical]

Seating depth is far more critical than powder charge and the notion that velocity is detrimental to accuracy is a curious one. I don’t find it to be the case very often. You have a 30-06, use it to its potential. If it’s accuracy at that velocity you want, use a 308.

I bet you are correct Chuck in everything except the .308, since I don't own one. And then there's always the issue that I don't know how to frig with that, and I admit I am not interested in frigging with (seating depth).


Well after the mornings range session I came home and decided to try 54.5grs, which is just 0.1 grain increase from the load which so far has been my most accurate load.

And the most inexplicable thing happened. Inexplicable!

My previous loads:
52.5grs H4350 with the 180gr Hornady BTSP avg'd 2436fps.
53.7grs H4350 with the 180gr Hornady BTSP avg'd 2533fps.
54.2grs H4350 with the 180gr Hornady BTSP avg'd 2589fps.
54.4grs H4350 with the 180gr Hornady BTSP avg'd 2577fps. Most accurate load so far.
54.9grs H4350 with the 180gr Hornady BTSP avg'd 2593fps.

54.5grs H4350 with the 180gr Hornady BTSP avg'd 2658fps. What?

I didn't understand this at all...

If somebody can answer why I got higher velocity with this than the 54.9grs I'd love an explanation. Is temperature possible?

The temp I wrote on the target is not correct. It was -2C at my house when I jumped in the truck to drive to the range, and then I didn't double check when I got there, just marked down the -2C.
But when I got in the truck to drive home, right after shooting, the temp on the truck dash thermometer was at 7C.

Here's the target and even though it's not quite the 1" group I liked this load. I think it's possible that I could do a better job shooting and tighten this up.
And that temp listed on there probably should been 5C-7C

 

[coleman1495]

Whats your barrel length on the 30-06? I can run Quickload when I get home.

How far are you from the lands? Those bullets look seated pretty far out. Colour the ogive of the bullet with a sharpie and see if it contacts the lands.

 

[Demonical]

Whats your barrel length on the 30-06? I can run Quickload when I get home.

How far are you from the lands? Those bullets look seated pretty far out. Colour the ogive of the bullet with a sharpie and see if it contacts the lands.

It's a standard 22" factory Remington barrel, this rifle was originally an ADL, back in 1980.

The bullets are not seated out, in fact they are seated to a COL of only 3.225" vs .30-06 case spec COL is 3.3400"

If you see above, I have ZERO clue about seating depth. No idea how far they are to the lands, and I don't ever measure for that type stuff. Don't know how, don't want to learn.

I've read so many threads where guys discuss that stuff and to be honest, I don't have enough time, bullets or powder to chase that. Which is kinda also why I never bothered with all that stuff.

I'll get 'acceptable hunting accuracy' with the seating die as is.

I'm not giving up.

Just primed another bunch of new Win brass, then going back to the reloading bench and then the rifle range tomorrow.

 

[coleman1495]

It's a standard 22" factory Remington barrel, this rifle was originally an ADL, back in 1980.

The bullets are not seated out, in fact they are seated to a COL of only 3.225" vs .30-06 case spec COL is 3.3400"

If you see above, I have ZERO clue about seating depth. No idea how far they are to the lands, and I don't ever measure for that type stuff. Don't know how, don't want to learn.

I've read so many threads where guys discuss that stuff and to be honest, I don't have enough time, bullets or powder to chase that. Which is kinda also why I never bothered with all that stuff.

I'll get 'acceptable hunting accuracy' with the seating die as is.

I'm not giving up.

Just primed another bunch of new Win brass, then going back to the reloading bench and then the rifle range tomorrow.

The COL isn’t the number you need to be concerned about right now. The distance from the lands to the ogive is what’s important. The book max spec doesn’t mean much. There is so much variation between bullet profiles there isn’t a spec you can go off.
You need to colour the ogive of the bullet with a sharpie and see if you are contacting the lands. It looks like your seated a ways past the cannelure which makes me wonder.

Edit- You don’t really need to measure where the lands are exactly, just get a rough idea. No special equipment required for now. Later on you might want a Hornady comparator but you can get a rough estimate now

 

[Demonical]

Well I know for sure the bullet isn't near the lands, even without doing that test. I did fool around with 1 load, in which I seated the bullet to a 3.333" COL, and those cycled easily. I'm sure they were not on the lands, and they woulda been closer than the 3.225" bullets I've been feeding.

But as to how close I have no clue?