The Type 97 is back . . .
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As much as I want one (I did preorder) I really doubt I will seeing it by summer. North Sylvia hasn't even acknowledged a sample has been submitted and recieved by the RCMP.
I haven't been around here long, but the RCMP really seems to take their time. The stg44 blue line is attempting to bring in still hasn't been approved (2years now) They were certain it would be under the Christmas tree for 2012.
I haven't been around here long, but the RCMP really seems to take their time. The stg44 blue line is attempting to bring in still hasn't been approved (2years now) They were certain it would be under the Christmas tree for 2012.
I don't think the dealers know much more than us. Well the ones I have talked to don't.
It would be nice for North Sylva to give us some more information though.
I believe what happened was... NS put the T97 in their dealer catalogue with expected shipping date. This caused all the dealers to believe it was a sure thing, and to go ahead and inform their customers and start pre-order's. The dealers made assumptions like most of the rest of everyone else. I believe some of the dealers have now taken the T97's off their websites (maybe this is just to stop the phonecalls and e-mail inquiries though).
Why NS put that information out there... I really don't understand that, as every attempt to investigate the matter has led to information which contradicts their claims.
Point one, there is no FRT#. All "Type 97" rifles and carbines in the Firearms Reference Table are listed as "prohibited" (except the "sniper" model, also known as the T88, which is "non-restricted"). This includes the "T97NS Prototype". Any dealer with access to the FRT can confirm this for themselves. There is no need to rely on anything I am saying. I'm just pointing it out.
Second point, the RCMP firearms lab confirmed - not to me but to a person I trust, who has no reason to lie, and actually has every reason to hope that there is a "non-res" FRT# for a T97 as soon as possible - that, as of two weeks ago yesterday, they have received no further T97 prototypes since the T97NS last year. Again, don't rely on what I am telling you. Phone them up and see what they say. I will be as happy as anybody to hear that they do have a sample and that they are now conducting testing on it. If they won't tell you, and I can't see why they wouldn't, I think they would at least tell any dealer with a firearms business licence.
My third point, why don't we ever get the full story - or even a bit of an update or anything - from NS about the state of their sample/prototype for the T97NSR. Sure, they are a business, they don't have to tell anybody squat, but they are telling people that there is an imminent approval of a "non-restricted" T97 which is going to ship in April of 2013. Why not just come clean with the hardcore fanbase for once? There is a lot of interest in this firearm and a lot of money to be made but, on the other hand, when April (and then May... and June...) role around and there are no T97's in stores, there are going to be a lot of bitterly angry people on CGN and in the firearms community generally.
I think people would be rooting for them if they just stated the obvious truth... "Guys, we're taking another run at getting a T97 approved. We'll let you know when the sample goes in. We'll update you when we get any results. We expect it to be a long haul, maybe as much as a couple years, but we believe we have it right this time and we are keeping our fingers crossed that we are going to have non-restricted T97's to ship to your local dealers soon!"
That's the approach I would take if I were in their shoes. I think anything else just causes too much anger and bitterness - and we don't need any more of that in the firearms community.
Why NS put that information out there... I really don't understand that, as every attempt to investigate the matter has led to information which contradicts their claims.
Point one, there is no FRT#. All "Type 97" rifles and carbines in the Firearms Reference Table are listed as "prohibited" (except the "sniper" model, also known as the T88, which is "non-restricted"). This includes the "T97NS Prototype". Any dealer with access to the FRT can confirm this for themselves. There is no need to rely on anything I am saying. I'm just pointing it out.
Second point, the RCMP firearms lab confirmed - not to me but to a person I trust, who has no reason to lie, and actually has every reason to hope that there is a "non-res" FRT# for a T97 as soon as possible - that, as of two weeks ago yesterday, they have received no further T97 prototypes since the T97NS last year. Again, don't rely on what I am telling you. Phone them up and see what they say. I will be as happy as anybody to hear that they do have a sample and that they are now conducting testing on it. If they won't tell you, and I can't see why they wouldn't, I think they would at least tell any dealer with a firearms business licence.
My third point, why don't we ever get the full story - or even a bit of an update or anything - from NS about the state of their sample/prototype for the T97NSR. Sure, they are a business, they don't have to tell anybody squat, but they are telling people that there is an imminent approval of a "non-restricted" T97 which is going to ship in April of 2013. Why not just come clean with the hardcore fanbase for once? There is a lot of interest in this firearm and a lot of money to be made but, on the other hand, when April (and then May... and June...) role around and there are no T97's in stores, there are going to be a lot of bitterly angry people on CGN and in the firearms community generally.
I think people would be rooting for them if they just stated the obvious truth... "Guys, we're taking another run at getting a T97 approved. We'll let you know when the sample goes in. We'll update you when we get any results. We expect it to be a long haul, maybe as much as a couple years, but we believe we have it right this time and we are keeping our fingers crossed that we are going to have non-restricted T97's to ship to your local dealers soon!"
That's the approach I would take if I were in their shoes. I think anything else just causes too much anger and bitterness - and we don't need any more of that in the firearms community.
- Location
- Alta/Sask Border Country
Man oh man... this effing thread.... I think I know what I'm going to do to ease the anxiety; I think I'll stay on the pre-order list, and buy a Tavor to tide me over until the 97 comes around.
then I can chill
Man oh man... this effing thread.... I think I know what I'm going to do to ease the anxiety; I think I'll stay on the pre-order list, and buy a Tavor to tide me over until the 97 comes around.
then I can chill
That, sir, is a brilliant idea. Hmmm maybe a famae too...
- Location
- Alta/Sask Border Country
Like... right now, I dunno... I've never fired a bullpup and I don't know if I'll like it or not.
Or... See, I already have a few that shoot 7.62x45, so maybe I should buy an RFB instead and shoot some 'x51.
...another waiting list +grin & eye roll+
Or... See, I already have a few that shoot 7.62x45, so maybe I should buy an RFB instead and shoot some 'x51.
...another waiting list +grin & eye roll+
P0WERWAGON
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- burnaby BC كافر
Stop spewing the TRUTH!!!
how can all the rumors, assumptions and dreams go on when the truth is in the open!!
my cousin cleaned the toilet of the guy that served coffee to the neighbor of a FRT lab guy and said they had a gun there.
the guy at the gunstore said the FRT was just minutes away.
the store took my pre-order money.
how can all the rumors, assumptions and dreams go on when the truth is in the open!!
my cousin cleaned the toilet of the guy that served coffee to the neighbor of a FRT lab guy and said they had a gun there.
the guy at the gunstore said the FRT was just minutes away.
the store took my pre-order money.
That is a powerfull argument. They took my money too. So... either I am a naive pie eyed dreamer, prone to throwing money at any girl that winks at me/gun store that shows me a picture of a cool gun, or there is a secret society that works outside the RCMP framework, that is getting us this gun soon.
I can't wait, it should be any day now.
The truth is in the open?? That's a laugh, because some guy on the Internet knows a guy who knows people in the lab?
Giggling
I suppose I could call the lab and ask myself but then again its none of my business. That kind of information strikes me as holdback.
I'll just keep giggling at this thread.
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If people have spent money, then it is entirely their business. I think there is just a bit of growing frustration on the lack of information being provided after they created these pre-order lists.
NS posted this on their forum here on CGN on December 5, 2012:
As far as I can tell, they have not made any comment on this matter in the more than two months since.
Going back to my three points:
(1) There is no FRT#
(2) There is no sample/prototype at the RCMP lab in Ottawa
(3) There has been little or no information out of NS (since December 5, 2012)
Since we've been invited to ask questions, I would ask these:
(1) Has a T97NSR sample/prototype been submitted to the RCMP in Ottawa for classification?
(2) If so, what date was it submitted?
(3) If not, what date do you expect to submit it?
(4) What is your expected time frame from sample submitted to decision on classification made for this rifle?
(5) What do you mean by `the process of finalizing on the FRT number`? My understanding is that FRT numbers for what the RCMP calls `semi-automatic versions of automatic firearms` are now only obtained by submitting a working sample and waiting for a classification result. Are you saying that this process was initiated some time ago and is nearing completion?
(6) Why is the RCMP firearms lab telling dealers who phone in that no new T97 prototype has been received for testing since the T97NS, which was classified as prohibited last year? Is the RCMP mistaken on this point?
(7) What makes you confident that you have a prototype which will not be classified as Prohibited? (Personally, I would be willing to give them a pass on this question, as it gets close to something like a trade secret. If they are right, and the firearms are classified non-restricted, then we will all eventually be able to see with our own eyes what they changed - or at least people like myself who have photographs of the internals of the T97 and T97A for comparison purposes - but I personally would like to know what the plan is. One of the things that concerns me most is the T97NS being prohibited last year. If that prototype was found to be prohib - after all the hubbub and litigation with the T97A - I am personally concerned that the RCMP may simply prohibit anything that looks like a T97 and say, in effect, `If you don`t like it, take us to court.` Of course they run the risk of losing in court, but... they prohibited the SCAR 16 on pretty weak grounds, and nobody took them to court. Is anyone going to take them to court on the BD-38, the BD 3008? What about the T97NS? These things don`t really seem to end up in court. The difference with the T97A was, people actually had them in their possession, and when their registration certificates were cancelled - they had access to the process under the Firearms Act (for review by a Provincial Court Judge). Even then, only a few people challenged anything (One in NS, one in AB, one in BC).
I don`t want to bad mouth anybody on this board. I actually really want NS to succeed in this whole endeavour, but this silence has been fairly `deafening` up to now. I think some small mistakes have been made (of the simple `jumping the gun` variety) which can easily be fixed. That`s all I am really asking of NS.
The RCMP IS going to try and block the importation of this firearm to Canada. I have no doubt of that. And that being the case, I want all of us in the firearms community, along with NS and all the dealers, inside the the tent pissing out. I don`t want to be pissing on NS`s tent here, when they are the ones putting the time, effort and $$$ into trying to bring cool new firearms to the Canadian market, but a little openness and transparency about the process would go a long way for them right now.
As far as I can tell, they have not made any comment on this matter in the more than two months since.
Going back to my three points:
(1) There is no FRT#
(2) There is no sample/prototype at the RCMP lab in Ottawa
(3) There has been little or no information out of NS (since December 5, 2012)
Since we've been invited to ask questions, I would ask these:
(1) Has a T97NSR sample/prototype been submitted to the RCMP in Ottawa for classification?
(2) If so, what date was it submitted?
(3) If not, what date do you expect to submit it?
(4) What is your expected time frame from sample submitted to decision on classification made for this rifle?
(5) What do you mean by `the process of finalizing on the FRT number`? My understanding is that FRT numbers for what the RCMP calls `semi-automatic versions of automatic firearms` are now only obtained by submitting a working sample and waiting for a classification result. Are you saying that this process was initiated some time ago and is nearing completion?
(6) Why is the RCMP firearms lab telling dealers who phone in that no new T97 prototype has been received for testing since the T97NS, which was classified as prohibited last year? Is the RCMP mistaken on this point?
(7) What makes you confident that you have a prototype which will not be classified as Prohibited? (Personally, I would be willing to give them a pass on this question, as it gets close to something like a trade secret. If they are right, and the firearms are classified non-restricted, then we will all eventually be able to see with our own eyes what they changed - or at least people like myself who have photographs of the internals of the T97 and T97A for comparison purposes - but I personally would like to know what the plan is. One of the things that concerns me most is the T97NS being prohibited last year. If that prototype was found to be prohib - after all the hubbub and litigation with the T97A - I am personally concerned that the RCMP may simply prohibit anything that looks like a T97 and say, in effect, `If you don`t like it, take us to court.` Of course they run the risk of losing in court, but... they prohibited the SCAR 16 on pretty weak grounds, and nobody took them to court. Is anyone going to take them to court on the BD-38, the BD 3008? What about the T97NS? These things don`t really seem to end up in court. The difference with the T97A was, people actually had them in their possession, and when their registration certificates were cancelled - they had access to the process under the Firearms Act (for review by a Provincial Court Judge). Even then, only a few people challenged anything (One in NS, one in AB, one in BC).
I don`t want to bad mouth anybody on this board. I actually really want NS to succeed in this whole endeavour, but this silence has been fairly `deafening` up to now. I think some small mistakes have been made (of the simple `jumping the gun` variety) which can easily be fixed. That`s all I am really asking of NS.
The RCMP IS going to try and block the importation of this firearm to Canada. I have no doubt of that. And that being the case, I want all of us in the firearms community, along with NS and all the dealers, inside the the tent pissing out. I don`t want to be pissing on NS`s tent here, when they are the ones putting the time, effort and $$$ into trying to bring cool new firearms to the Canadian market, but a little openness and transparency about the process would go a long way for them right now.
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I have spent the money for the deposit and the rest is sitting in my gun safe.
It's not our business as we don't own NS or work in the firearms lab. Having a vested interest in purchasing a product isn't the same.
NS has no requirement to keep us abreast of the process.
The most telling part of the whole conversation is that the only people who DO KNOW what is happening are staying very quiet... Where is North Sylva and why don't they just come out and say what's going on? If there are delays then people will find out anyway. Less embarassment involved by coming clean than by trying to cover it up. It doesn't look good and it's not exactly confidence inspiring from a customer's POV.
C'mon NS - out with it - wtf is going on?
C'mon NS - out with it - wtf is going on?
You seem to be a little too interested in somebody else's business.
They do if they want to maintain good-will with the gun-buying public. While it may not influence this item, it can certainly any future transactions they wish to capitalize upon.
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