Thompson SMG

I was told that the mission of a soldier was to "Close with and annihilate the enemy." The means whereby this was accomplished was not specified. I doubt that this mission has changed.

No matter how many bombs get dropped, artillery rounds fired, MG rounds fired, it still takes someone with a rifle and bayonet to settle the matter before the dust settles. Afghanistan and Iraq proved that it is still the Universal Infantryman that is the "Queen of Battles".
 
I was told that the mission of a soldier was to "Close with and annihilate the enemy." The means whereby this was accomplished was not specified. I doubt that this mission has changed.

No matter how many bombs get dropped, artillery rounds fired, MG rounds fired, it still takes someone with a rifle and bayonet to settle the matter before the dust settles. Afghanistan and Iraq proved that it is still the Universal Infantryman that is the "Queen of Battles".

I beileve the term was "Close in with and destroy the enemy". Suppresive (automatic) fire can be part of that mission. Agree with the Boots on the ground of course. The best example of that need was the Gulf war, where they bombed for weeks, but in the end it was still the ground forces that had to finish the job, at least to the extent allowed.
 
Semantics aside, you get the point. The world is not yet done with small arms and standing armies, despite advances in technology.
 
Semantics aside, you get the point. The world is not yet done with small arms and standing armies, despite advances in technology.

Indeed not. We will always need the infantry to go in to clear and hold the ground. Infantry may be the Queen of Battle, but artillery is the God of War. Modern armies shifted to an artillery based doctrine early in WW1 when it became painfully apparent that infantry alone could not progress in the face of prepared positions protected by obstacles and covered with fire from machine guns and artillery. The Cdn Army picked up on this quite well and tends to maintain an artillery bias to the present.

It's good for soldiers to plump up their own branch, regiment or corps, but what gets it done is combined arms operations incl infantry, armour, artillery, air support, engineers, communications/intelligence, and ample logistics. Young officers who fail to grasp this peak at the Captain rank. I continue to work as a contract trainer for the Army and this is a basic message that has to be reinforced time and again.

As an aside, operations in Afghanistan were done at a pretty low level with infantry heavy forces which were appropriate to the terrain, the mission and the nature of the enemy. The Army doctrinal and training baseline has since returned to higher level combined arms operations.
 
Having artillery did the French no good at Dien Bien Phu. Likewise the US firebases after they inherited the Vietnamese debacle. Massive carpet bombings of the Ho Chi Minh Trail accomplished a lot of jungle clearing - period.

In WWI, artillery devastated the landscape making it impossible for infantry to move in the open, liquefying the soil into man-swallowing mud. Intense bombardments hardly affected German trench lines as they hunkered in their bunkers. When the bombardment stopped, they emerged with their Maxims and were ready for the infantry advance.
 
M-M-kay, but the fighting at Dien Bien Phu was positional, siege warfare in nature with a lot of close air support substituted for artillery. The biggest thing that got the French was their poor selection of terrain to set up a blocking position, a valley bottom with the Viets on the high ground around them. The Viet Minh had at great effort manhandled artillery and bags of ammo into well hidden positions where they could dominate the French firebase. French counter-battery artillery was ineffective because they could not locate the well hidden and dug in Viet guns. The French didn't have enough close air support to substitute for artillery and their CAS was in daytime only. The French eventually lost their airstrip and didn't have the capability to conduct re-supply by airlanding or by airdropping. The end result was that the Viets kept infiltrating the French positions until they could overwhelm them with infantry.

The US firebase concept worked a lot better in Vietnam because they enjoyed round the clock air support and continuous fire support from their own artillery with the benefit of heavy lift helicopters and tactical airlift. US firebases stood up and killed a lot of VC, but the US didn't have the political will to continue with what was ultimately attritional warfare where the Viets were prepared to expend large numbers of people to achieve their ends in the face of superior US firepower. The Chicoms did the same thing in Korea.

The dilemma for the allies in WW1 was that the infantry could not get into the German trenches unless and until the artillery had destroyed the wire obstacles in front of them. This was a real problem until HE shells and the correct type of fuzes for them were developed. Until that time the infantry got into the wire where they were slaughtered like partridges. In addition to the preliminary bombardments, which often went on continuously for days on end process and quite often obliterated the German front line trenches, the infantry learned to use a creeping barrage which they advanced behind, and which kept the surviving Germans suppressed until the infantry got into the trenches. Having taken parts of the German trenches the infantry did not have the mobility to exploit further because the intensive artillery preparations had made the ground impassable.

Successive German lines in depth could not be tackled without artillery preparation. This was always a problem because the artillery had to move forward to be in range to support the next jump, a problem which was again compounded by the cratered nature of the ground which the artillery itself had created. Logistics support was also a big problem, esp re-supply of arty ammo. Most of the transport was either horse drawn or dependant on constructing narrow gauge railroads, a huge challenge when trying to get through the churned up, cratered terrain to support the advance. Primitive communications also prevented the allies from recognizing and exploiting success by moving fresh infantry forward at the correct place and time. There were always some surviving Germans who would stagger out of their concrete pillboxes and take a toll of the advancing infantry. The allies eventually learned to deal with this by designating units as "moppers-up" to deal with bypassed and surviving Germans so that the advance could continue. Lack of reliable communications also prevented the use of on call artillery support to deal with enemy positions which continued to hold out.

There were a lot of painful lessons for the allies in WW1, but it all started to come together with the big advances in the summer of 1918 where we saw the first use of combined arms warfare involving the use of better radio communications, air observation and direction of artillery, air reconnaissance, close air support, continued use of creeping barrages and on-call artillery support, tanks for close support of the infantry with the specific task of taking out German MG positions and engineers to overcome obstacles and maintain mobility. The infantry was re-organized at section level to include LMGs and grenadiers in addition to the rifleman. The Cdn Corps was a real leader in the development of artillery doctrine incl the refinement of the creeping barrage, the use of radio and air observation to direct artillery fire, and the use of sound ranging to locate and neutralize German artillery.

What it all says is that reliance on one fighting arm alone is done at great risk, and that combined arms warfare is always the baseline when planning operations. A fairly recent illustration of this was in the Yom Kippur war where the tank had become pre-eminent after the spectacular gains in the 1967 war. The IDF neglected their infantry and artillery and put a lot of faith in armour alone. This all came unstuck after the Suez canal crossing where Egyptian infantry with man packed Sagger missiles were able to blunt the IDF armoured response. There was not enough on call artillery support or mechanized infantry with the armour to deal with this problem, a deficiency which the IDF soon resolved after some pretty painful losses.
 
There is a poster I've seen in which an effete artillery Officer with daintily poised tea cup is about to touch off a cannon into a wild melee of brawling infantrymen. The caption read:

"Artillery lends class to what would otherwise be an undignified brawl."

"There is a word you often see, pronounce it as you may -
'You bike', 'you bykwee', 'ubbikwe' - alludin' to R.A.
It serves 'Orse, Field an' Garrison as motto for a crest;
an' when you've found out all it means I'll tell you 'alf the rest."

Rudyard Kipling's "UBIQUE"
 
What is the deal now on buying and selling fa guns? Haven't done one in years.

You call me and say you have, let's say, an old 1921 Thompson you'd like to sell. Once we agree on a price you simply call the CFC and tell them you're selling the gun and wish to "initiate" a transfer. They take the details from you as the seller. You receive a "reference number" which you will then pass to the buyer (me). The buyer calls the CFC to "complete" the transfer. The CFC then passes the information to the buyers CFO who approves the transfer. Once the transfer is approved you are advised you can ship the firearm to the new owner. Pretty easy peasy!

At least until October 15 .........................................
 
One of the firearms we found while I was working on demolition crew years ago in downtown Toronto was a Thompson with a drum and bunch of ammo packed in paper boxes. Wooden box was stashed in the attic. Boss freaked out and called 911... You wouldn't believe the #### that can be found in 100+ year old houses. My current company does a lot of electrical renos in downtown. We usually find mostly old shotguns or handguns. Once found a newspaper dated 1945 talking about Canadian war ship sinking German U-boat.
 
What is the deal now on buying and selling fa guns? Haven't done one in years.

In theory it's extremely easy; there are very, very few 12(2) collectors remaining, and all involved levels of bureaucracy keep as close an eye on them as they desire at all times. If you had an iota of an inkling of criminality, they would already be on you. Nothing needs to be Verified, as with a 12(3) Transfer where they will hold it for _months_ and _years_ (until the laboratory gets an opening in their schedule) so they can see *again* that it has been converted into semi automatic only.

Should be as simple as the simplest of Restricted Transfers.

I will never know first-hand, though…
 
I was thinking about selling a tsmg. I wonder about the 12 (3) transfer, I have some that were at the laboratory and
are covered in RCMPolice red metal wire seals.
 
this is crazy but I figure a Thompson in any condition is not the high priced gun like in the USA, biggest reason they can shoot it there where we have to keep under lock and key, if you look on the Collectors Source website a deactivated one in fair condition sells for 2500 to 3000, best guess its 200 dollars to deactivate meaning welding up solid, what is a Thompson worth in working condition sitting in a safe, lets face it the pool for buyers is declining quickly.
 
Back in the '60s, a shop I used to frequent was bringing in as new M1A1 Thompsons from Interarmco. His cost was US$85 each; saw the paperwork. Retailed them for C$135.
 
Some people have waited three plus years after they bought/sold the gun.
Yes, that just smacks of being a nice make work project to justify "the system". I have a lot of respect in general for the RCMP but when it comes to firearms they are not this communities friend, far from it.
 
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