Thureon Defense 10mm Review/Pics/Chrony Results! (AKA My Very First KB!!)

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I had a chance this morning to head out and do some testing of various loads I have developed over the years. These loads have been run through everything from the tiny Glock 29 to the tank-like S&W 1006. I blame myself for the results here. I had my doubts as to a blowback operated rifle handling such powder volume and pressure without issues...

For obvious reasons I will list only the bullet used.

200grn XTP

Averaged 1449fps providing 932 Ft/lbs of energy.

I moved on to the 180grn XTP...

Averaged 1618 FPS providing 1046 ft/lbs.

Next was the 135 Nosler...

Averaged 2143 FPS for 1374 ft/lbs !!

After I had my chrony work done I decided to get down to running the rifle through its paces. I chose my standby load, a hot one though it's well within published data and I have been using it for years with no issue. Bullets was a 180 XTP with a decent charge of Blue Dot behind it. The results are as follows, I am no photographer so excuse the low quality of the pictures.

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Damage to Lower Receiver

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The magazine took the brunt of the gasses.

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An unloaded 10mm casing next to my KB.

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In closing I blame no one but myself for the results however I'd like to warn other to start low and work up. I made the mistake of assuming this rather large rifle (compared to my 10mm pistols) could handle the mid-range loads I had developed. I was wrong...
 
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I did a computer simulation using your velocities obtained, assuming you were using blue dot/longshot type powders you are running in excess of 50,000 psi. Max loads for the 10mm are in the 36,000 range. You definetly have been playing with fire my friend - these are no where close to mid range loads. Better luck next time, could have been alot worse. Merry Christmas!
 
Ouch. :(
As long you still in one piece !

Seems odd that a mid-range load would do that. It is 10mm after all. It should be able to handle factory ammo and then some.
 
A&Shuntr said:
I did a computer simulation using your velocities obtained, assuming you were using blue dot/longshot type powders you are running in excess of 50,000 psi. Max loads for the 10mm are in the 36,000 range. You definetly have been playing with fire my friend - these are no where close to mid range loads. Better luck next time, could have been alot worse. Merry Christmas!
Click to expand...

Please comprehend before posting. Only the load i was using at the time of the KB used blue dot. It is 1/2 grain under max and has served me well through over 15,000 rounds through 4 different pistols. To be clear all loads I used were from reputable sources (IMR, Alliant, SPEER etc.)and all were below max. To be honest I am almost ready to blame an out of battery discharge...

The gun is OK as far as I can tell though it is a bit scarred on the lower. I knew what happened immediately and was more disappointed than anything. I credit my eye protection for my lack of injury.
 
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I'm certainly no expert, but from the bulge at the base of the case, above the rim, it appears as if the bolt/carrier unlocked early....
Too light a recoil spring for the loading, perhaps?
 
foxbat said:
I'm certainly no expert, but from the bulge at the base of the case, above the rim, it appears as if the bolt/carrier unlocked early....
Too light a recoil spring for the loading, perhaps?
Click to expand...

Something I was worried about before I even bought the gun. The makers of the JR carbine didn't put out a 10mm due to the extra concerns with the cartridge and I think it was a good decision. Since this is a blowback design there was no chance for it to unlock early since it never locked in the first place... Only bolt mass and the recoil spring to fight the violent forces that normally exit the front of the firearm...
 
The important thing is your are not hurt, i will sure start with factory loads in the midlle of the pack, the hot loads that i will see... JP.
 
B said:
Something I was worried about before I even bought the gun. The makers of the JR carbine didn't put out a 10mm due to the extra concerns with the cartridge and I think it was a good decision. Since this is a blowback design there was no chance for it to unlock early since it never locked in the first place... Only bolt mass and the recoil spring to fight the violent forces that normally exit the front of the firearm...
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To clarify my post, I meant that the bolt/carrier + recoil spring tension were insufficient to prevent them from starting to move backwards, out of battery, before the pressure was low enough to prevent the effect noted.
This is different from firing 'out of battery', whereby ignition occurs before the bolt has closed completely.
 
foxbat said:
To clarify my post, I meant that the bolt/carrier + recoil spring tension were insufficient to prevent them from starting to move backwards, out of battery, before the pressure was low enough to prevent the effect noted.
This is different from firing 'out of battery', whereby ignition occurs before the bolt has closed completely.
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I gotcha, I am most inclined to blame myself though through some fiddling I have found this rifle will mark the primer far out of battery. Beyond that I also believe the design itself is insufficient for this cartridge. It is a concern I had from the time I first saw this rifle several months ago. Anything could be to blame as well as some of those issues combining and producing the problems I encountered.
 
Thureon Defense may be interested in getting your gun back in exchange for another. They can use it to study extreme failure of their firearm. From there they can make product improvements if needed to safe guard others from having to go through what you just did.

Glad to hear you're not injured other than your pocketbook.
 
I decided to compare your chrony # with the one published by Ballistics by the inch ( very serious site ) and in all of them you are way over the published # for a long barrel even more than the extra hot Buffalo bore 180 gr by nearly 50fps and the Hornady XTP 200 gr by close to 200 fps, the Federal hydra shock 180 by 225 fps and the Nosler 135 gr is 433 fps ( this is shocking ) over what is listed for the 135 gr Corbon ( very hot load ), seem to me that your loads were mega extra hot, all can go on the site and look up the #, at this point i am not sure the rifle is at fault, the Buffalo bore is know for being the epitomy of hot load and your are besting it by 50 fps, i can believe some of your loads achieved 50.000 + pressure, as it was stated previously by A&Shuntr, this is a story to follow, i'll dig more into it... JP.
 
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Like I said my loads were based of off published data and were well below max! If they were too much for the rifle then so be it, my bad as I have already said many times. Buffalo bore and ballistics by the inch are a poor source of pretty much anything next to the companies I sourced my data from.
 
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Just stating some official numbers, not accusing nobody of nothing, but it is hard not to see those # and compare... Merry Christmas... JP.
 
B said:
Like I said my loads were based of off published data and were well below max!! I do not now nor have I ever hot rodded my loads.
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What source are you referring to? Reviewing my Hornady 7th Edition manual shows those loads being at least 300fps greater with the 200gr. XTP and 370fps over the 180gr. XTP. Now, I will say that Hornady's numbers are based on a 5" barrel and I realize that the significant difference in barrel length will boost velocities, however, the figures you've reported would suggest max loads at the very minimum according to the data on the bullets that I have on hand.

There's no need to jump on anyone here or accuse them of claiming that you're dumb and can't read as you did earlier. The fact that you had a KB! is a serious matter for those people who own or who are looking to own a T D rifle, especially in 10 mm Auto.

Frankly, I'm surprised that this event took place at all, especially with a load that you claim that has been proven safe in your other handguns. That alone is reason enough to share the load data and list your sources. If the load you claim is safe blew up your rifle there has to be a reason for this.
 
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