Trailboss Vs Unique in antiques

[dthunter]

Good luck with your choices mooncoon.
If you are as pressed for time as you say, you are going to have to make some hard decsions!
I understand that loading ammo in the field seems more practical, but it just isnt (IMO).
Purchase the cases and supplies you need,adjust your prioities, and preload the ammo.
That way you can eliminate carrying powder,primers,loose bullets, and a loading tool.

I understand how time is hard to find. Very well.

I honestly wish you the best in finding your loading/shooting system.
Sometimes we have to just change things a little to get what we need.

Have fun guys!

 

[Drillbit]

I use trailboss.

I shoot an SAA 44 special.
The Winchester cowboy action loads shoot at 690fps out of my gun

Trail boss specs for a 240 grain bullet are starting at 4.0 and max of 5.2.

Worked my way up.
-4.0 was around 630 fps
-4.6 was at 660
-5.2 was 690 fps

So, I noticed that for a seemingly large difference in powder amounts, there isn't that much velocity gain. If a guy was to make a scoop that held 4.6 gr of trailboss, I think that it would be a safe amount, and if there was a little more or less, the gun still wouldn't be damaged.

 

[H Wally]

Why not just get a set of those little Lee dippers, figure out which one you need..... and carry that one to the range or wherever?

Other alternative is to make a custom measure which can be dipped into a catfood tin of powder, then knock off the top. For a fast powder, if that's what you want to use, you might get away with a .32 Auto case with a handle soldered onto it.
.

That's essentially what I'm thinking. My issue is that I'm trying to figure out which powder it would be safe to do that with.

I have fed my 38 sp SAA hundreds of Trailboss loaded rds, seems to work well with no corrosion issues.
As far as ad hoc charge containers, I just use Zig Zag rolling papers, spun up around a loaded 38-55 or 45-70 cartridge. Spin, lick and stick; slide off the bullet end slightly and twist it closed. Pour your charge in the open end and twist it closed.
Whites burn up fast with no residue; Blues are waterproof and much thicker...we used to call them Horseblankets. You are best utilizing this with bigger charges; say 60 to 110. It probably would work with smaller as well I suppose.

Good to know. My main issue once again is having the time to do this and weigh all the charges ahead of time. Also, the pistol loads would be far lighter than that.

It can really depend on the powder, the cartridge and the firearm.......for example , the smallest Lee dipper I've seen (the 0.3 cc one) still packs something like 2.2 grains of IMR-700X (or 2.7 grains of Unique) - a load that is still too hot for relaoding the .320-calibre British Bulldogs !

For that matter, a .22 LR casing seems to hold a very similar amount of powder, so I'm still looking at other potential solutions for "custom/quick measures" for certain antiques....

As a generality, though, the 0.3 cc Lee dipper seems just right for the "Lebel" 8mm revolver loads, and the 0.5 one is handy for decently recoiling Webley loadings.....

Well, in this instance the cartridges are those referred to in the first post, 44 russian and 455 webley. For this kind of thing where my loads could vary heavily I'd only be using it in one or two of my most solid revolvers. I don't have any intention of trying this on all of my guns, and this is simply a solution to a limited ammunition problem for two specific very solidly built guns.

I think you would be wise to only use light loads under the circumstances you are describing. The pressure curve for smokeless goes exponential as the charge increases above roughly 40,000 psi. Point being is that if you are loading to medium or high levels, it would not take much compaction of the powder in the powder scoop to put you into a pressure range that was unsafe for an old handgun. I also don't think that shells loaded using a scoop are overly accurate
Trail Boss is the only powder that might be safe under your circumstances because I don't think it ever gives particularly high pressures. There was an article in the double gun journal about 1 year ago with a fellow checking rifle pressures and TB and using a pressure gun.

cheers mooncoon

Good advice as ever! I don't mind running at lower pressures in this instance, as I accept it's a tradeoff - lower pressures in exchange for not having to constantly clean. I also recognize that it won't be overly accurate, that's ok... it'll be more accurate than not shooting at all

Personally , I'm surprised nobody's mentioned Alliant 2400 yet....

Hmm - I'll have to look that up. Anyone have anything to say about Alliant 2400?

IMR's position on Trail Boss is that the maximum load for any given cartridge is a load that comes right up to the base of the bullet, *without compressing* the charge. The minimum load is 80% of the maximum load.

Therefore, Trail Boss could kinda-sorta be loaded volumetrically, at least, for modern cartridges. I'd probably find a Lee scoop to use. It works very well in the 44 magnum and 500 S&W - but neither of these are antiques, and both are capable of pressures much much higher than the 455. Still, there's no indication whatsoever that even maximum charges of Trail Boss causes anything other than very very low pressures. Cases were sooty, and the recoil - feels more like you're lobbing a chunk of lead downrange than shooting it.

I was reading that on their site as well. I think I posted a link to their volume based loading recommendations earlier. Anyways, I've been thinking that once a middle of the road load was found, that was already below max pressure, there would be enough lee-way that if a dipper were used there would still be wiggle room in case there was a little extra powder in there. Since Trail boss recommends against filling less than 80% of maximum charge, if the appropriate loads were found to below that point, a wad could be added, or bullet seated deeper as long as it didn't compress the load.

You can make very mild loads for antiques with Trailboss. I'm using it in my S&W Schofield. I would do some experimenting with a dipper and a scale and see how much variation is capable in weight. Trailboss being so light, it might have more potential variation in mass, when measured by volume.

Fair enough. On the flip side of that, since it's so light in weight it would take a considerable variation in mass to affect its weight in grains. Just a thought. Coupled with trail boss' suggestion of determining loads by filling a case to capacity, I think it's doable.




Basically what I'm getting out of this thread is that no one really has tried this. I guess it's time to test some theories

 

[Olof]

Because black powder requires a gun to be extensively cleaned withing a couple of days after use at maximum, sooner being better. The situation I'm thinking of is one in which hot water is limited to one pot full per time required to heat it, and all water is under a layer of ice. I'm talking winter at my cabin.... it sucks for reloading. None of the conditions are condusive for cleaning or fine reloading work and I spend long enough up there that I usually run out of ammo and the trip out is too far to make it worth while. The trip in usually breaks any glassware and anything else not packed in 12 layers of styrofoam and foam chips. I'm sure I could get a powder scale up there, but it's a colossal PITA and if there's a non-corrosive powder that could just be used instead it would simplify the whole prossess by a huge degree.

Until now I've used black powder and it simply isn't worth it to shoot in those conditions. The amount of water required is too much when you have to get it from a frozen over lake, carry it to your cabin, and then warm it up on a wood stove just so it'll be warm enough to put your hands in without your hands going numb. Other problems include water freezing to the barrel while cleaning it inside, splashed water freezing on the floor, and my left hand turning slightly blue from fishing out parts from the water bucket. If that isn't a strong reason for looking for a non corrosive black powder replacement, I don't know what is!

I should say as well, in the situations I have had pre made reloads available and on hand things were great. Went out for a snow shoe, did some shooting, poked around, shot some more, came back to camp, things were A-ok..... until I ran out of ammo. Then it sucked.

Water... You don't use Ballistol? 1 part Ballistol to 10 parts water. Spritz it all over the firearm. Wipe it off. Some wet patches (with the mixture I mentioned) some dry patches, you're done. I find cleaning up after black powder very easy to do, and not very time consuming. Black powder is not corrosive, but it is hydroscopic.

Try Ballistol...

 

[mooncoon]

I find cleaning up after black powder very easy to do, and not very time consuming. Black powder is not corrosive, but it is hydroscopic. .

I take exception to that statement. BP is both hydroscopic and corrosive. The bulk of the residues from shooting it is potasium nitrate and sulphur compounds. The potasium nitrate is an oxidizer (as in rust) while the sulphur can for acidic compounds. In the absence of moisture, nothing happens but as soon as the fouling gets a bit damp, chemical reactions begin

cheers mooncoon

 

[dingus]

I take exception to that statement. BP is both hydroscopic and corrosive. The bulk of the residues from shooting it is potasium nitrate and sulphur compounds. The potasium nitrate is an oxidizer (as in rust) while the sulphur can for acidic compounds. In the absence of moisture, nothing happens but as soon as the fouling gets a bit damp, chemical reactions begin

cheers mooncoon

I agree i wont shoot BP in any of my antiques anymore as most antiques have a few pits here and there and the BP residue gets deep in where you cant clean and starts to make things worse over time.
I Had this happen even after i scrubed the crap outa my gun this was years ago i dont do it anymore. Only in a mint new bore would i consider BP.
I love TB and Unique and 2400 they are my 3 fav powders.
TB is a great powder i use it alot.

I have a NWMP Enfield MKII revolver 476 caliber and i discovered that 45 Schofield cases with the rims thined slightly will chamber and cycle in the gun but the bore is like .460 so i have some .458 RN HB Bullets about 260 gr in weight im gona load them up with a 6 gr TB load i bet the old gun shoots tacks as that bullet should fill out perfect with the chamber throats and minty bore being .460 you cant get accuracy with .455 dia bullets in theses old guns.
I do like the enfield MKII but never could get them to shoot decent because of the wrong bullets.
any 476 cal gun would do good with TB and theses RNHB .458 Bullets.

 

[vviking]

After many hundreds of test loads, unique VS. Alliant 2400 ... 2400 wins for me. It's far more forgiving, gives higher vels. at equal pressures, and also equals the Unique's accuracy. Fills the case much more too, not much chance of a double charge going unnoticed!.
2400 works best with heavier bullets, 215 gr is the lightest ive gotten results with.
Oh yeah, ... it burns very, very dirty at these low pressures.
10 grains under a 215gr is a nice load. Worked up over the chrono to about 750fps.

Personally , I'm surprised nobody's mentioned Alliant 2400 yet....

I love TB and Unique and 2400 they are my 3 fav powders.
TB is a great powder i use it alot.

2400 is working well for me .... about 1000 rounds fired so far.
It won't bite an antique too hard, if the load happens to go a few tenths over the normal charge.


Will have to pick up a can of TB, a dingus endorsement gets me curious.

 

[jethunter]

If you use dippers to measure powder you just need to ensure that you leave yourself ample safety margin. At these powder volumes it is fairly do-able to meaure within 0.2 gr using a dipper. But you need to develop a technique and practise it to get repeatable accuracy. Dip - weigh, and repeat until you establish what YOUR repeatability / accuracy range is and then make sure you are charging at least that much plus .2 gr BELOW max charge.

Example: If you find that you can dip a given powder to within .3 gr, and you have determined that 4.5 gr is the do-not-exceed charge for this powder, then you adjust your dipper so that it will dip about 4.0 gr, you will be A-OK.

Any of the powders you list would work using this method. A long/narrow cylinder makes a more accurate dipper than a short/fat cylinder. The Lee dipper set is Ok or use an empty piece of brass with a wire handle twisted around it, and trim the brass to a length that provides the weight/volume of powder you want.

 

[Goldenlakepete]

It's a shame that GOEX doesn't make "Clear Shot" powder anymore - it would have met your needs completely. I just have a bit left and I've been shooting my Navy Arms 12 ga SxS muzzleloading shotgun since Sept. 20th and haven't had to clean it yet.

A friend of mine uses Jim Shockley's Gold Powder as the main charge in his flintlock rifle and says that it too is clean burning. I haven't tried it myself yet.

 

[drslav]

my question would be what guns or calibers you want to use this for?
i use TB for my 1892. Great powder. it is possible to make/get a dipper exact size to load it as such. mind you i would not do it. I weigh every case before loading ( zero/tare) and after loading with miniature digital scale you can take in the backpack. May just be safer way...

 

[tokguy]

my question would be what guns or calibers you want to use this for?
i use TB for my 1892. Great powder. it is possible to make/get a dipper exact size to load it as such. mind you i would not do it. I weigh every case before loading ( zero/tare) and after loading with miniature digital scale you can take in the backpack. May just be safer way...

Trailboss for your 1892?
I'm assuming it's a Colt New Army / Navy.
Are you using Hollow based bullets?
I was under the belief that a fast powder was req'd to bump the skirt into the rifling.
That's why I was using Unique...interesting.
Have you recovered any fired bullets for inspection?

 

[drslav]

Sorry I meant 1892 French service revolver. 2.5gr 2.8 works nice.
Checked the bullets. Look well with clear rifling marks.
Came up with load myself. Will take up to 2.8 in this gun without any bad signs. Bullet is rnfp lead.

 

[sail32]

Cleaning black powder is no problem; I use a mix of about 50/50, water and Ballistol.
I give the bores and out side of the rifles or pistol before I leave the range and a cleaning when I get home. It is quicker and easier than smokeless powder cleaning.
The site http://www.cascity.com/forumhall/, has a number of cleaning posts and a link to three videos of cleaning black powder, pistol, rifle and shotgun.

 

[H Wally]

my question would be what guns or calibers you want to use this for?
i use TB for my 1892. Great powder. it is possible to make/get a dipper exact size to load it as such. mind you i would not do it. I weigh every case before loading ( zero/tare) and after loading with miniature digital scale you can take in the backpack. May just be safer way...

As stated in all but my last two posts, 44 russian and 455 webley. I've still yet to decide on powders but odds are I'll do as was suggested and make a long thin dipper and have a load worked out that has leeway on the charge so that it won't easily overcharge.

Cleaning black powder is no problem; I use a mix of about 50/50, water and Ballistol.
I give the bores and out side of the rifles or pistol before I leave the range and a cleaning when I get home. It is quicker and easier than smokeless powder cleaning.
The site http://www.cascity.com/forumhall/, has a number of cleaning posts and a link to three videos of cleaning black powder, pistol, rifle and shotgun.

As has been stated, it is a problem when your water is frozen and you have to do it in the dark with an LED head lamp. As much as I like black powder, in this situation it isn't an option.

 

[drslav]

trailboss will work for you just because its so bulky. figure out minimum charge the gun works with well and use it in case you add little more it wont hurt it. Like i said i use 2.5gn but i went as high as 2.8 and it didnt seem to bother the gun. Could have put 2.9gn no problem. like someone else suggested there is not much gain of velocity with .2 of a grain simply because the powder is so bulky. So putting .4 grain in my case was still safe. only when i went lower say 2.2 the gun fired very lightly but still pushed the bullet out and got stuck in a piece of 4x4
I think you just have to try what the lowest working load is and go from there...it will work for you then you have to find the dipper that when filled gives you the load you want. i looked into the cases and they looked pretty much equal when loaded.

 

[Olof]

Cleaning black powder is no problem; I use a mix of about 50/50, water and Ballistol.
I give the bores and out side of the rifles or pistol before I leave the range and a cleaning when I get home. It is quicker and easier than smokeless powder cleaning.
The site http://www.cascity.com/forumhall/, has a number of cleaning posts and a link to three videos of cleaning black powder, pistol, rifle and shotgun.

I may be wrong about the corrosive nature of Black Powder, but I will agree that clean up is very easy. I know a lot of guys out there who are afraid to shoot it for various reasons. Clean up being one of them.
I find BP much more fun to shoot... It's to bad others don't.

Those videos really show how easy BP is to clean up after. That is pretty much how I do it. No Rust...

 

[Dean2]

Trail Boss in a muzzle stuffer

Trail Boss works great as a black powder substitue in old balck powder cartridges from 32 to 45-100 and 50-120. Has anyone here tried it as a blackpowder substitute in a flintlock or percussion muzzle loader?