True or false
- Thread starter sigarms226
- Start date
The failures of the early (Poly-tech) guns were the bolts, not the Receivers. I could be wrong, but I haven't read of any problems with the receivers. The bolts were made with inferior steel for a while, it was too soft. This has long since been rectified, although they still apparently have frequent issues with headspace. A lot of people swap the Norinco bolt out for a USGI bolt the second they get the gun, and it is a drop in replacement. However, from talking to several people who've had several M305s, it is not uncommon for the headspace to actually be BETTER with the Chinese bolt than it is with the USGI bolt.
If you want to know more about it, check out Smith Enterprise's website, they'll tell you everything that WILL go wrong with your gun.
All I know is I'm happy with my M305s. Happy enough that I'll never spend $2000+ for a Springfield Armoury gun. I would buy one of their 16" SOCOM II barrels though, if it were available.
FYI, "Metal, Injection Molded" is a fancy term for CAST.
Cheers.
Tim H
The failures of the early (Poly-tech) guns were the bolts, not the Receivers. I could be wrong, but I haven't read of any problems with the receivers. The bolts were made with inferior steel for a while, it was too soft. This has long since been rectified, although they still apparently have frequent issues with headspace. A lot of people swap the Norinco bolt out for a USGI bolt the second they get the gun, and it is a drop in replacement. However, from talking to several people who've had several M305s, it is not uncommon for the headspace to actually be BETTER with the Chinese bolt than it is with the USGI bolt.
If you want to know more about it, check out Smith Enterprise's website, they'll tell you everything that WILL go wrong with your gun.
All I know is I'm happy with my M305s. Happy enough that I'll never spend $2000+ for a Springfield Armoury gun. I would buy one of their 16" SOCOM II barrels though, if it were available.
FYI, "Metal, Injection Molded" is a fancy term for CAST.
Cheers.
Tim H
I think you read my post wrong. The failures have been in SA receivers not norc/polytech. Bolts are an entirely different ball of wax and failures are rare.
rommelrommel
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
I have heard of some very rare early polytech recievers being inconsistently hardened. There's nothing "wrong" with the bolts either... they're just slightly too short in the lugs and leave too much headspace... and there's no way to tighten it up other than a different bolt.
He gave you big muscles.
Parts are made in Taiwan by the same factories that produced the Type 57 rifle with the equipment the US gave them after the US stopped the production of the M14.
The method of "casting" is not pot metal casting nor is it sand casting. Forged may have been good at a time, because it was simple and it worked, casting has come a long way since. Some castings are now considered superior to forgings for production while keeping similar strength properties. Its more like metal injection molding like someone else mentioned. Considering the Chinese use a cheaper (not as good) steel to make their receivers I still don't get how their receivers are better simply because its "forged". I bet you guys all think the dollar store "forged" wrenches are good too!
Either way from a standpoint from using both Taiwanese raw steels and finished products and Chinese raw steel and finished products I trust the Taiwanese a hell of a lot more then I trust the Chinese when it comes to metallurgical properties of their metals.
However Norinco's are good value for their dollar no one can debate that.
Dimitri
I have never heard of an issue with the Norc receivers. I have heard of issues with the SA ones though.
Production buzz words aside, I'd take a Norc based rifle over an SA one.
Production buzz words aside, I'd take a Norc based rifle over an SA one.
Parts are made in Taiwan by the same factories that produced the Type 57 rifle with the equipment the US gave them after the US stopped the production of the M14.
The method of "casting" is not pot metal casting nor is it sand casting. Forged may have been good at a time, because it was simple and it worked, casting has come a long way since. Some castings are now considered superior to forgings for production while keeping similar strength properties. Its more like metal injection molding like someone else mentioned. Considering the Chinese use a cheaper (not as good) steel to make their receivers I still don't get how their receivers are better simply because its "forged". I bet you guys all think the dollar store "forged" wrenches are good too!
Either way from a standpoint from using both Taiwanese raw steels and finished products and Chinese raw steel and finished products I trust the Taiwanese a hell of a lot more then I trust the Chinese when it comes to metallurgical properties of their metals.
However Norinco's are good value for their dollar no one can debate that.
Dimitri
- Location
- East ontario
The SA receivers are mad by Alpha casting in quebec, its is one of the best casting companys in the world.
we use them to make our AR15 870 CQB MKII stock adaptor casting.
bbb
Eh, the SAI bolts are the main issue, some of the early cast ones failed and they were all recalled.
The SAI recievers have some out of spec areas such as the famous scope mounting splines. But then again that was a stupid design from the beginning. Splines take up slack cause there are many of them on shafts, 2 splines to hold a scope mount aligned was a dumb move and even USGI M14s suffered from this. The Basset mount is the only mount that thought of how dumb the splines were and went to fix it.
I love that "production buzz words", it is simply a fact the Chinese are horrible at material properties. I cannot change that.
Dimitri
Yes and no. Generally speaking I would agree with you, but when it comes to small arms China is about as advanced as any other country. Small arms production was one of the first industries they took on after the second world war and they've had a lot of time to figure it out. Many times people judge the functional quality of their stuff by the finish machining but that is not a true gauge of how well their rifles and pistols function. There have been many firearms coming out of "reputable US firearms factories" that have issues far exceeding those you will find on the Norc M14S/M305.
Given early on, like 10 years or so ago the M14s coming out of China had some issues but those issues were work out a long time ago. Currently the only issue that I know of with the Norc M14s is that the barrels and bolts are not properly setup, this only is an issue though if you are planning to change the barrel or bolt of your rifle.
I have yet to see a reason to justify the cost of a SAI M1A. Because so few are being brought into Canada I think we don't hear about the issues they have. Their value is purely an emotional one and not reflective of what one actually receives. Right now one can buy 3 fine examples of Norc M305s in as many days for the same price or less then you would pay for a M1A and wait 6 months to get it. You would take all 4 rifles to one of Hungry's clinics and do the same work if not more to the SAI.
Eh that is why some of us browse American boards. Can't have a valid opinion without all the facts.
Dimitri
Ghys_T3LSS
CGN Regular
- Location
- Sherbrooke, QC
I think that quality of Chinese goods has improved over the years. We like to believe that China= scrap but we have to be realistic. China produces a large part of all the industrial products today. Castings, bearings and machined parts. Some would be very surprised to see all the chinese stuff on atv or snowmobiles. From what I heard, more and more shooters start from a Norc 1911 frame to build their shooting guns. Why dismantle a $ 1,500.00 gun instead of taking a 350 one?
Ghys
Ghys
Only when it comes to cheap consumer goods. Were initial cost is the only factor. There are alot of choices even now to avoid the need to use Chinese goods in any project, with non-Chinese costs not exceeding the over all production and short term maintenance costs for a quality product from the start.
Dimitri
Eh that is why some of us browse American boards. Can't have a valid opinion without all the facts.
Dimitri
Agreed.
But you won't get good Norc facts from their boards as the flow of Chinese pistols and rifles stopped a while ago down there and the info is old. If in the US, Chinese made M14 type rifles were still available I think you would see much the same comments on the US boards as you do here. In fact I'd love to see what the Americans would be saying if cheap norc AR15s started arriving en mass . Either way there are no grounds for slagging Chinese small arms when it comes to functional quality. They know what they're doing, they do it a lot and they do it well. In fact there are areas of Chinese manufacturing that soon nobody else in the world will be doing if not already. They can do almost anything at any level of quality you want so long as you are willing to look and pay for it.
The real irony is that while the US is putting up barriers between small arms and civilians, China is not.
The real irony is that while the US is putting up barriers between small arms and civilians, China is not.
Go to China and try to buy a AK or another firearm and tell me there are no barriers then.
Something tells me the vary best you'll get your hands on is a .177 air gun as all else are illegal for private ownership in China.
Dimitri
- Location
- Lower Mainland
Guy, Norinco recievers and kreiger barrels ###ually molest CRAP CAST NM SA's.
Go to China and try to buy a AK or another firearm and tell me there are no barriers then.
Something tells me the vary best you'll get your hands on is a .177 air gun as all else are illegal for private ownership in China.
Dimitri
I'm talking about Canadian Civilians. China's internal problems aren't mine
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