Undecided about a 45-70

[wallythacker]

With heavyish handloads suitable for a strong lever the 45-70 delivers as much momentum as a 375 H&H.

More bullet weight, but less FPE, the temporary cavity might not be as big, but the 45-70 will punch a deep hole when loaded right.

In the Hornady #? book, one of the authors shot a big cape buffalo bull through the shoulders. It ran with a couple more bullets put into it before it got away. The tracker announced 2 buffalo down and dead. There was a cow perfectly hidden and the 45-70 bullet passed through 4 cape buffalo shoulders and stopping just under the hide.

No 30 cal anything will match that, and not sure any 375 of any flavour can top it either.

I was reading excepts from that original article. At least I think it was. The 45-70 has taken the Big 5 African game, the elephant, cape buff, lion, rhino, & hippo?

Something not mentioned but applies to me and many others. Left handed shooting.
Finding LH guns to my liking, material, finish and importantly, caliber, is next to impossible.
Finding a Ruger SBL is nearly impossible, finding a LH stainless 18.5" Ruger M77 with a capacity of 4 chambered in 45-70? Not going to happen. Finding any other brand of rifle with those specs? IDK, but I suspect if there are any out there the price would be insane.

Which brings me to my final point, for now. I have levers in several calibers. I have 1 bolt gun which is used maybe 2 x a year. My levers are shot on a regular basis. If, IF I ever won a free safari to Africa for the Big 5 what do you think I would take to shoot? Find myself a nice 375 H&H double? Maybe a LH Ruger in 458 Win Mag? A single shot stainless in 416 Ruger? None of those are optimal, heck, some are unobtanium at any price.

For a once in a lifetime trip my trusty, reliable, fast cycling, bush friendly Marlin SBL loaded with 500g solids to near Win 458 Mag. performance will be my go-to rifle. I will practice like mad for weeks before the flight to Africato make sure I am a MASTER of my Marlin. I want every muscle in my body to have memorized the needed moves to visually acquire the target, raise my rifle, aim, track and squeeze the trigger.

And have the needed moves memorized to cycle the action for a follow up shot, just in case.
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[Mr.Rigpig]

With heavyish handloads suitable for a strong lever the 45-70 delivers as much momentum as a 375 H&H.

More bullet weight, but less FPE, the temporary cavity might not be as big, but the 45-70 will punch a deep hole when loaded right.

In the Hornady #? book, one of the authors shot a big cape buffalo bull through the shoulders. It ran with a couple more bullets put into it before it got away. The tracker announced 2 buffalo down and dead. There was a cow perfectly hidden and the 45-70 bullet passed through 4 cape buffalo shoulders and stopping just under the hide.

No 30 cal anything will match that, and not sure any 375 of any flavour can top it either.

Its going back a long time now, but if I remember correctly, it was Brian Pearce who was shooting that Marlin 1895 in 45-70, the article was published in an issue of Rifle magazine I think? Its got to be 15+ years ago. Buffalo Bore or Garrett Cartridges ammo I think.

 

[Demonical]

I love the .45-70.

I had a Marlin Guide Gun, with the short 18'5" barrel, a fantastic rifle, really great action. But like the dummy I am, I sold it.
Truthfully should have kept it, but the reason I sold it was because I got a Marlin M1895XLR. Same rifle except it's got the 24" barrel.

The M1895XLR is a way nicer rifle to shoot, due to the longer barrel the recoil characteristic is vastly better, much smoother shooting.

I've also got a Remington No.4 Rolling Block. Beautiful rifle, single shot of course. and a Miroku Winchester Deluxe M1886, 'Short Rifle'.
It's the most gorgeous rifle I own. Colour case hardened, octagonal barrel, sensational wood, the fit finish are superb.

Of all these the M1896XLR is easily the best handling, best practical hunting rifle, and is a joy to shoot off the bench.

 

[tactical lever]

Its going back a long time now, but if I remember correctly, it was Brian Pearce who was shooting that Marlin 1895 in 45-70, the article was published in an issue of Rifle magazine I think? Its got to be 15+ years ago. Buffalo Bore or Garrett Cartridges ammo I think.

Was meaning to look, but where I saw a blurb about hunting with the 45-70 outlining that hunt was in Nosler manual #6 I believe it was.

Probably a longer story about it published elsewhere.

 

[brybenn]

I would second the slug gun suggestion if you're craving or needing some real punch now and then. Nobody I've ever met or talked to has ever said "yeah, had a nice afternoon of shooting my 45-70 today". It's a few shots here/there so you could justify the cost of shooting 45-70 or scratch the itch shooting slugs.

While it would be a fun range toy/attention grabber....I'd take the advice given a number of times=get a longer barrel. Personally, I pay no attention to 45-70 unless the name Marlin is attached to it but I have no first-hand experience shooting anything else in that caliber.

Haha me and a couple buddies shot off a bunch of 458wm the other day. Weather turned bad before we got to the 4570 but next trip I'll be shooting the entire 100 rounds

 

[brybenn]

It is going to be difficult for this question to come off as genuine but I genuinely am curious;
Why, apart from nostalgia, would anyone want a 45-70 for anything?
It is a brutally inefficient cartridge is it not?
Not particularly accurate, heavy recoil, and the guns themselves tend to be heavy too, no?
I don't own one and never will but I am curious of how it holds on to a place nowadays.

Again, genuinely curious so feel free to ignore the question if you have nothing nice to say.

I love it for black bear up close. Those big heavy soft bullets do wonders on big bears. Giant hole in giant hole out the other side. Dead bear usually right where they were hit. Not alot of jellied meat from high velocity rounds either. Not every one hunts open fields and in the thick woods the guns often chambered in 4570 are easy to carry and fast to the shoulder and shots are generally close
My double 4570 weighs about the same or less than the average sxs 12ga. Loaded with 405gr bullets at 1600/1650 fps it kicks about like a 1 1/8oz slug from a 12ga which is not bad. Both barrels group very accurately and the fact it's a double it handles fast and swings great. The downside is it's plain in the looks department but I'm not afraid to use and scratch it either

 

[.22LRGUY]

Haha me and a couple buddies shot off a bunch of 458wm the other day. Weather turned bad before we got to the 4570 but next trip I'll be shooting the entire 100 rounds

Beauty! Sounds like fun!

 

[SHELL SHUCKER]

Also mentioned that the 45-70 was inefficient. At what?

Can be loaded with copper jacketed bullets, monolithic copper alloy solids, cast lead, and generally from about 300-480-ish grain in a lever action.

Depending on pressure, I can pick from 3 or 4 different primer types to use, and a fairly wide variety of powders. Have loaded about 10 gr. of Bullseye behind a 375 gr. cast bullet, which was about as loud as a .22 LR (maybe), but still ripped through about 7" of green aspen. Can be loaded up for cape buffalo on the other end of the spectrum. Believe Alaska Fish and Game have put it on par with the .375 H&H for stopping power.

Some of the suggestions don't really make much sense to me. Shotguns fall far behind for accuracy and penetration with regular slugs.

Nothing wrong with a short barrel rifle; seems like the fella wants something compact. So long as you realize it'll be loud, and regular open sights will be harder to shoot, with precision.

I don't hear overly great things about Chiappa, but maybe better now. I like the older Marlins myself and would get a slightly longer barrel.

My sentiments as well. I've had many fun times with the 45-70 since the mid 70's and well know it's potential in many scenarios.
Many folks these days are into the high stepping, flatter shooting chamberings pushed by marketers since the early smokeless powder days.

 

[brybenn]

Beauty! Sounds like fun!

500gr woodliegh round nose after 8 gallon jugs of water and about 2' of semi frozen mud. Another one went thru 11 gallon jugs of water and kept going.
300gr Hornaday HP at 2700fps become varmint bullets although one lead core remained intact although it's a similar shape as a quarter. I'll have to lower that velocity alot

 

[brybenn]

I doubt a 4570 can push those 500gr woodlieghs fast enough for decent expansion.

 

[geologist]

I doubt a 4570 can push those 500gr woodlieghs fast enough for decent expansion.

I seem to remember Camp Cook pushing 500 gr ash trays to some ungodly speeds in 1895s.

Like 1500 to 1600 fps. Ouch!!!!

 

[wallythacker]

Another point
A 45-70 WILL crash through brush and leaves to tear a giant hole in the intended target.
Short of smacking into an oak tree I doubt a 45-70 will be affected by brush. Come to think of it I doubt shooting in a hurricane would affect the 45-70 trajectory as well.

 

[tactical lever]

Another point
A 45-70 WILL crash through brush and leaves to tear a giant hole in the intended target.
Short of smacking into an oak tree I doubt a 45-70 will be affected by brush. Come to think of it I doubt shooting in a hurricane would affect the 45-70 trajectory as well.

Maybe shoot through a small tree to kill something right behind it, but there isn't any such thing as a great cartridge to shoot through brush. Due to the lower rotational velocity, it may be more easily destabilized than some cartridges.

Quite a bit of wind drift, too.

 

[tactical lever]

I doubt a 4570 can push those 500gr woodlieghs fast enough for decent expansion.

Maybe not, but I wouldn't worry about expansion. However I'd use a huge flat nose that imparts trauma on the way through regardless of expansion. A flat nose will also cut a big hole through like a high speed hole punch.

 

[tactical lever]

I seem to remember Camp Cook pushing 500 gr ash trays to some ungodly speeds in 1895s.

Like 1500 to 1600 fps. Ouch!!!!

That's probably enough! Some fellas load pretty hot, too; and I saw a load that was somewhere around 43 000 psi from Handloader magazine. I think that's a little hot for a Marlin.

The one load was a 415 gr. gas checked cast at 2088!

My goal for the 45-70 is a 405 cast held to maybe about 1600-1650, with the pressure low enough that I don't have to mess around with gas checks.

Cheap (ish!) big bore fun, that won't beat you or the rifle up too bad. And will breeze straight through most heavy game.

 

[tactical lever]

This was the famed Bill Bagwell, with his 45-70 in Africa. He liked the 480 gr. cast Lyman bullet, and IIRC IMR-3031at BP speed, or just black powder. That 480 would cycle through a Marlin, too.

Besides his knife making prowess, he used to be a factory shooter for Goex Powder. And could bust a gallon milk jug at 400 yards offhand with his Sharps.

The muzzle velocity of the load that flattened the zebra was I think about 1350 fps. Complete pass through at around 170 yards.

 

[jimbo45]

I have a hard time trying to understand the appeal of a 12" 45-70. If it was an Encore and we could actually use a handgun for hunting I could probably get there. But for any practical purpose, that short a rifle isn't as effective as it should

I have a hard time trying to understand the appeal of a 12" 45-70. If it was an Encore and we could actually use a handgun for hunting I could probably get there. But for any practical purpose, that short a rifle isn't as effective as it should be.

It’s funny you bring up the encore pistol as I have an encore rifle with the 15 inch pistol barrel in 45-70 it’s my go too rifle for pushing bush for moose and it’s also killed more than a few bears last bear I shot was about 200 yards and when that little rifle barked that bear dropped in its tracks My buddies laugh at me with my single shot but I grin and say I only need one with my hammer lol

 

[brybenn]

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That's probably enough! Some fellas load pretty hot, too; and I saw a load that was somewhere around 43 000 psi from Handloader magazine. I think that's a little hot for a Marlin.

The one load was a 415 gr. gas checked cast at 2088!

My goal for the 45-70 is a 405 cast held to maybe about 1600-1650, with the pressure low enough that I don't have to mess around with gas checks.

Cheap (ish!) big bore fun, that won't beat you or the rifle up too bad. And will breeze straight through most heavy game.

I tried the 500gr woodlieghs in my double at what the book said should be around the 1600fps mark. I did not chronograph the loads but they did not regulate at all thru my double. The box says impacts above 1800fps for expansion.
My 458wm has a 26.5" barrel so I can easily get top speeds from it
I load 405gr rem jacketed fnsp at 1600fps and the same load for the Oregon trail silver hard cast flat nose 405gr gives me 1650fps for my double. At 30 yards they cut a nice figure 8 in the target. At distance they zero out at 75 yards and 100 yards although I'd have to shoot them again to recall which was which. After Lyme my memory hasn't been good. I use my double for bear hunting and baiting and tracking in thick bush. Itdoesnt see to many chances for shots past 50 yards ever.
A 405gr bullet at 1600fps is more than enough for any north american big game or small game.

I don't like to admit it but I once shot at a running bear with my 458wm. Saw a lot of dust kick up on the off side of the bear and it kept running. No signs of impact on him no blood no fur.
Found where the bullet hit the over ground logging road gravel. Looking back to where I was shooting from wondering how I'd missed I saw the path that was now clear. About half way was a alder tree cut in half. 1" tree deflected the bullet enough that it went in front of the bear not thru him. I've shot thru pine trees for fun but even a 1" tree can deflect a big heavy bullet

Even wind plays a big deal with big heavy bullets when you're trying to lob one in 6 to 700 yards out there for fun
Inside 75 yards the 4570 is great on game. After that range it is quickly surpassed by bottleneck cartridges on game. The old 45 will still kill out as far as you want to push it but be prepared to track what you punch a hole thru

In closing. Yes I think everyone should play with a big bore. Even if it's a slow one

 

[Mr.Rigpig]

I read an article somewhere, maybe on Buffalo Bore's website, regarding penetration and hard cast bullets. IIRC around 1600 fps was the sweet spot for maximum penetration, and when you push them faster penetration goes down.... The big bullets do not come close to the speed required to impart the "shock" that smaller, faster rifles have.
More speed may flatten the trajectory a tiny bit but you don't gain any "killing power", but you do gain recoil!
(This is with regards to hard cast bullets)