Using the slide stop to drop the slide on an empty chamber (IPSC Global Village)
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I agree
Edward Teach
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What with all the slamming back and forth that the slide does when the gun is being fired, it's a wonder it doesn't simply fly apart... 
When I see someone with a handgun in a holster, I figure it's holstered, and when it is it's none of my damned business if the thing's in condition one, two or three. As long as it stays holstered, or pointed downrange I'm good. I'm also a big fan of guns being loaded all the time, no one ever 'accidently' shot someone with a gun they thought was loaded and turned out it wasn't. Oh yeah, and if you drop the slide on my 1911 without a round to chamber I'm going to go back to my Anglo-Saxon roots and express myself in the language of my ancestors, while doing so I will almost certainly question your legitimacy. If you don't want to buy me a new trigger job, don't dry drop my effin slide.
Wrong. Double action firearms refers to what movement(s) take place when pressing the trigger. If as you say DA firearms involve a hammer hitting a firing pin then I guess most modern revolvers aren't DA either as their hammers incorporate the firing pin. The presence of a hammer or a striker is irrelevant. Pressing the trigger on a double action firearm results in TWO movements. One to charge the system, be it a hammer or a striker. The second movement is releasing the hammer or striker, thus DOUBLE ACTION. The Glock "safe action" is Glocks spin on the term double action and also relates to the striker being PARTIALLY charged when the slide is forward in battery. ON a side note your bolt action rifle is a single action and I doubt it has a hammer, so what would you call it?
As for spring set you are wrong again. Springs take a set through cycling, not when at rest in either compressed or relaxed states. This issue has been discussed and the conclusion the same for many years.
IPSC rules are IPSC's rules and the majority are not required. A loaded pistol in a holster(hammer cocked or not) is NOT A RISK. Mandating a cold range is done to accommodate those who can't keep their pistol in the holster and lack muzzle control. Every negligent discharge is the result of a human handling a firearm without regard for the fundamental four(I threw that in just for my friend Bob who enjoys bantering about my inabilities without ever contributing to the conversation... HI BOB!!). If you remove the human, you remove the ND. In the case of most organizations, they attempt to remove the loaded firearm. Oddly, even though cold ranges are mandatory there are still many cases of negligent discharge, go figure. Pressing the trigger is only done after your sights are aligned and the conscious decision has been made to shoot. Again, most "competitors" never look where their firearm is pointed when they press the trigger. This only reinforces poor handling habits. Rule one. "Treat all firearms as if they are loaded." If you follow this rule and treat all firearms as if they're loaded it doesn't matter if they truly are or not. Pressing the trigger to "prove" it is not loaded only promotes the belief that "its ok, its unloaded so I can forget the fundamental four and do stupid sh*t with the firearm now because it is unloaded."
I'm not sure where you're going with your post but I'll try and answer what I understand. Treating all firearms as if they're loaded does not mean you should grab your gun to defend yourself with the belief that it is indeed loaded. What the rule implies is that all firearms are to be treated as if they're loaded, which is directly supported by the other three(of the four) fundamentals of firearms handling.
Don't point a firearm at anything(including objects that don't bleed) that you are not willing to destroy
Keep your finger off the trigger until your sights are on target AND you've made the conscious decision to fire
be sure of your backstop(as well as what is between your firearm and the target).
Its not rocket science, its logic and common sense. Only four rules are required for the safe handling of any and all firearms. The use of mechanical safeties is always a good idea but it should be used as an additional measure AFTER applying the fundamental four.
Glad you brought up revolvers. When you see a person walking around with a revolver in a holster, would you prefer to see the hammer cocked, or down? What a coincidence, that's the way I like to see the hammer on a 1911 and pretty much any other pistol as well.
A modern revolver has no mechanical safety so carrying one in single action(hammer back) is a foolish idea. However, if the firearm is in good mechanical order, there is no danger.
I see two solutions to the "hammer down and holster" command. Use this command as a chance to practice your sight picture and trigger squeeze and actually LOOK where your firearm is pointed, or, lower the hammer manually and move along.
TDC
ETA: TIm_Cox, Olegs69, Thanks for the kind words. I was certain I was either on everyone's ignore list or at the very least disliked by everyone.
I have a question,...you don't actually compete with your firearms, do you? I mean in an organized shooting sport. There are rules for all sports. Are you saying that the vast majority of IPSC, IDPA, PPC, CAS,bullseye, etc have these safety rules because they are not skilled enough or are careless and hence need the safeguards? What ranges do you frequent? I assume you have some type of qualification,(RO, instructor in an occupation with firearms?)
I think you are from Alberta, you should try going to The Shooting Edge or an indoor range that you are close to and talk to those guys about firearms safety. They had a mishap recently, but despite that, they have good safety practices, and I believe different shooting sports are practiced at that range.
I do compete, not in an "official sport" I shoot three gun matches. Why? Mostly to avoid the constant bickering I've observed and heard about from others in the more "organized sports" but I also compete in three gun as it involves more than just expensive race guns and spare time. Being proficient with multiple systems creates many challenges. The safety rules are put in place to minimize the potential for stupid people to do stupid things with firearms. Personally I think it equates to lowering the standards so as to include as many as possible. Of all the courses I've taken, all were run with hot ranges with skill levels from beginner to very experienced. Not once was there an ND or even a close call. Shooting is dangerous, you could get shot during a match or at the range.
I don't live in Saskatchewan, if you check my Avatar, it is the ALBERTA provincial flag, not that of Saskatchewan or any other province. As for TSE, I used to work there, I'm well aware of solid safety practices.
TDC
Double action guns #### and release the hammer on the trigger stroke. Glocks don't do that. They partially self-#### in the firing cycle then the trigger stroke draws the striker back the last little bit and releases it. If anything, it's more single action than double action, but it's really a hybrid of the two and uses a striker instead of a hammer. Like I said; different type of action.
If you say so.
Modern revolvers have hammers that strike a transfer bar (a safety device) which in turn strikes the firing pin. Either that or the firing pin is incorporated into the hammer, but none of this changes the fact the the gun is cocked by drawing the trigger back.
Bolt action rifles are exactly that; BOLT action. A bolt can also be thought of as an elongated hammer. Sure, it it fired by a single action trigger release, but so what?
Really? You have some proof of that do you? That's a pretty wide reaching accusatory statement don't you think? Do you even KNOW most shooters? I don't. In fact, is it necessary to look through the sights and get a clear sight picture in order to drop the hammer on an empty chamber or is it acceptable in your universe to merely point the gun safely at the back stop in order to do so?
Sigh....
There's just not much that can be added to this. But thanks for the pointless insult.
Actually some do. But they just don't have external, MANUAL safeties. A transfer bar is a safety device which prevents discharge unless the trigger is deliberately pulled.
"Lower the hammer manually and move along" after being issued a specific command by the R.O. to drop the hammer? Really? I can see why you don't compete. You would be asked to leave after a stunt like that.
TDC
ETA: TIm_Cox, Olegs69, Thanks for the kind words. I was certain I was either on everyone's ignore list or at the very least disliked by everyone.
I think the problem here is that you like to deal in absolutes, and I am old enough to realize that no such thing exists. As well, in your absolute world, it seems quite acceptable to chuck sh*t at people you don't know and proselytize about "the way" according to you. So guys like me who enjoy IPSC shooting are therefore unsafe. In fact, it seems that pretty much everyone is unsafe accept you, in addition to being stupid for even competing because organized competition promotes bickering...if I follow your "logic." As if there's no bickering going on here.
I know the Four fundamentals very well thank you, and I believe the training system we adhere to in IPSC is quite valuable. I get the impression you just like whacking the hornets nest for no good reason other than to provoke a response, and every time someone presents a logical, valid argument you deflect it and take it in another direction using half-truths or personal opinions to back up your statements. I've presented my thoughts as clearly as I can; as logically as I can, but I see that there will be no moving you so from now on I think I will just bow out and expend my energy on something more fruitful.
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I worked as an instructor, range officer(for the walk ins) as well as sales. It was a dream job.
There are many absolutes in life, and there are several in the realm of firearms. The fundamental four would be the biggest absolute. If adhered to, there is no possibility for a negligent discharge. Four rules are all that is needed. Anything additional is a waste of effort as it solves nothing the fundamental for do.
As for IPSC or any other organized event. You cannot deny there is bickering. Any event with a 70 page rule book has issues. Scoring a stage shouldn't involve so many rules, it simply slows progress. Is IPSC/IDPA etc fun to shoot? Of course, anytime you get to trigger rounds is fun. I personally don't wish to participate for several reasons. The courses of fire are unrealistic. If you want to be competitive(as in strive for a decent placing) you have to ignore proper tactics which I won't do. The cost to join is very high. A lot of matches are out of town/province which makes attendance an issue. Last but not least, it only involves one system, I prefer three gun matches for the challenge of using three systems(sometimes four with a precision element as well).
I do poke the hornets nest there is no doubt. What I don't do is poke the nest without reason. I see an issue, I post my opinion based on sound logic and defend that. Unfortunately for many that means I must blow down their house of cards in the process. I will not sugar coat my opinions nor will I attempt to save someone's feelings by compromising my opinion. I dish out the facts with a healthy helping of reality. If someone can't defend their position or take some criticism then perhaps they should rethink their position or not post. There are many here who lurk in the shadows and read the boards rather than post. I suspect these folks have their opinions but don't feel the need to defend it or debate it, which is fine. However, if you make a stand be prepared to defend it.
TDC
MAN! After reading through all these pages, I have to admit I agree with TDC!
If your pistol needs catering to, it's not a pistol that is reliable therefore it's not suitable for defensive combat situation.
And the 4 Rules are absolute!
So whoever it was that said to HOLD THE TRIGGER DOWN WHILE RELEASING THE SLIDE.
Yeah... I'm thinking you've never been trained properly...
The Captain that taught me firearm safety said the following and I quote: "Have any of your f**kers had a negligent discharge due to some f**ked up old weird ass sear from your firearm that turned the s**t into f**king full blast while it's on safe? Now any of you f**kers want a summary trial for f**king negligent discharge that leads a whole year's pay deducted because of that s**t?"
I'm ex-army and I can tell you, there is NEVER a command for "Hammer-Down" that's just civie talk and crap. Much like radio code: "OUT" and the civie version: "OVER and OUT"
Now back on the topic of 1911 needing to "ease" down the slide...
That's the first pistol I've heard that needed that much catering.
Now I'm going to give you guys a real life example.
In my regiment, when training with the 9mm (Hi-power)
We were always racking the slide with empty chamber (well we have something to push the follower down but that's not the point) on our drills.
Now I KNOW for a fact that my service pistol have barely EVER been serviced by a smith but hell, it shoots like a charm and works every time and I've rack the s**t out of it.
As for the CEASE FIRE, UNLOAD and MAKE SAFE drill, yes we do put a mag in to DE-####. But the 4 safety rules are still in place: AIM at the target, be sure of backdrop and squeeze. NEVER EVER DE-#### at an uncertain/unsafe direction.
Same thing with the C7/C8 rifles and along with the C9 and C6 machine guns except we don't put a mag in for these firearms.
And if anyone of you tell me that I need to "EASE" in my bolt on a C7 or my C9... HA!
I don't think what I say is a matter of personal opinions, it is absolute and must be followed at all time. By the way, the RCMP are taught the exact same thing.
Soooooo after all that, my "personal conclusion" is that any firearms that need any special treatment due to a probable failure is NOT a reliable firearm for defensive situation.
Now for the fun factor or going into competition, that's a controlled environment and if you have fun with the firearm then hell by all means, baby it as much as you want and keep it going. Especially one as expensive as a 1911.
I still love my Sig P226 more! HA! And yes I beat the hell out of my Sig. .40 S&W and with .22LR conversation kit.
If your pistol needs catering to, it's not a pistol that is reliable therefore it's not suitable for defensive combat situation.
And the 4 Rules are absolute!
So whoever it was that said to HOLD THE TRIGGER DOWN WHILE RELEASING THE SLIDE.
Yeah... I'm thinking you've never been trained properly...
The Captain that taught me firearm safety said the following and I quote: "Have any of your f**kers had a negligent discharge due to some f**ked up old weird ass sear from your firearm that turned the s**t into f**king full blast while it's on safe? Now any of you f**kers want a summary trial for f**king negligent discharge that leads a whole year's pay deducted because of that s**t?"
I'm ex-army and I can tell you, there is NEVER a command for "Hammer-Down" that's just civie talk and crap. Much like radio code: "OUT" and the civie version: "OVER and OUT"
Now back on the topic of 1911 needing to "ease" down the slide...
That's the first pistol I've heard that needed that much catering.
Now I'm going to give you guys a real life example.
In my regiment, when training with the 9mm (Hi-power)
We were always racking the slide with empty chamber (well we have something to push the follower down but that's not the point) on our drills.
Now I KNOW for a fact that my service pistol have barely EVER been serviced by a smith but hell, it shoots like a charm and works every time and I've rack the s**t out of it.
As for the CEASE FIRE, UNLOAD and MAKE SAFE drill, yes we do put a mag in to DE-####. But the 4 safety rules are still in place: AIM at the target, be sure of backdrop and squeeze. NEVER EVER DE-#### at an uncertain/unsafe direction.
Same thing with the C7/C8 rifles and along with the C9 and C6 machine guns except we don't put a mag in for these firearms.
And if anyone of you tell me that I need to "EASE" in my bolt on a C7 or my C9... HA!
I don't think what I say is a matter of personal opinions, it is absolute and must be followed at all time. By the way, the RCMP are taught the exact same thing.
Soooooo after all that, my "personal conclusion" is that any firearms that need any special treatment due to a probable failure is NOT a reliable firearm for defensive situation.
Now for the fun factor or going into competition, that's a controlled environment and if you have fun with the firearm then hell by all means, baby it as much as you want and keep it going. Especially one as expensive as a 1911.
I still love my Sig P226 more! HA! And yes I beat the hell out of my Sig. .40 S&W and with .22LR conversation kit.
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Yep, I said that, WITH CONDITIONS.
You do realize that EVERY time you fire your gun, the slide slams back into battery with your finger STILL pulling the trigger? Do you expect it to continue firing? So what is the difference with pulling the trigger when dropping the slide? Aren't you still doing it in a safe direction?
The technique is actually GOOD TO KNOW, not necessarily to use because it is politically incorrect. And EXACTLY as TDC was saying, there is nothing wrong with a "hot" range (except politics/policy) if you are safe. So following that logic what is wrong with dropping the slide with your finger on the trigger?
Also, if you end up with a broken gun (semi auto rifle included) it is a technique that can be used to PREVENT NDs.
As for the training, it was actually standard practice for shooting target guns 40 years ago (way before action shooting). And as relliot said, there is a big difference between modified guns and "stock" guns. Yes you can beat the c**p out of a stock gun, including a stock/GI 1911. But how many stock guns have 2 lb triggers with a 4mm reset travel?
Yet my gun is extremely reliable and very, accurate. I can put a couple thousand full power 40 S&W rounds through it without cleaning or many, many thousands without a single jam/stoppage. I expect to do trigger and tune up work on it every 25 to 50k or so, provided the slide isn't dropped too many times on an empty chamber, damaging the sear/hooks.
Tuned guns don't always mean fragile or unreliable.
And I wouldn't use that particular gun as a carry gun, no more than you would use a Porsche as a delivery van, even though you could. Just as you don't stomp the gas peddle every time on a Porsche the same way you would stomp the gas every time on a little 4 banger, even though you could, and in the end, the Porsche would still be more reliable.
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