USPSA shooter shooting IPSC in Canada.. Black badge needed?

[cbabes]

Sure there is

Millions of people use ranges in Canada and there are next to no incidents occurring and they are not "BB" super safety certified. There's all the proof you need, you can buy $2 million insurance for $10 a year.

Shawn

Sorry let me be more clear. Those millions of people are not running around, drawing guns from holsters, shooting on the move, etc in an IPSC match. This is about the BB course. Many think it's a "holster qualification course" and they even go as far as taking it just for the "credentials" and never shoot an IPSC match again.

I'm talking about the IPSC shooters who don't need a BB compared to the ones who do here in Canada.

My bet is there are more DQs with the shooters who don't take the BB. At least in the first year. I hope after that the shooters with questionable safety would be schooled or just quit.

 

[shawn]

Sorry let me be more clear. Those millions of people are not running around, drawing guns from holsters, shooting on the move, etc in an IPSC match. This is about the BB course. Many think it's a "holster qualification course" and they even go as far as taking it just for the "credentials" and never shoot an IPSC match again.

I'm talking about the IPSC shooters who don't need a BB compared to the ones who do here in Canada.

My bet is there are more DQs with the shooters who don't take the BB. At least in the first year. I hope after that the shooters with questionable safety would be schooled or just quit.

LOL you think they dont?

Ever heard of CQB matches, 3 gun, cowboy action etc etc etc?

Some of them you are even shooitng on the move with other shooting on the move at the same time on the same firing line. How is it possible that there are not hundreds of deaths each year with all the people doing this stuff without the BB course?

You guys brought up the BB being so great for "safety". Its not my fault that reality dose not support your position.

On top of that you think BB is some sort of credentials now? All BB qualifies you for is to shoot ipsc nothing else, its a money grab pure and simple. Sorry dude I think you got into the koolaid a little much this holiday season.

Is BB required to shoot ipsc? yes
Can they and should they require it? yes, its up to them, its their game they can do what they want
Is it about safety? No, its about the rules of the game and revenue generation.

Shawn

 

[maurice]

Sure there is

Millions of people use ranges in Canada and there are next to no incidents occurring and they are not "BB" super safety certified. There's all the proof you need, you can buy $2 million insurance for $10 a year.

Shawn

I hate pointing out the obvious...but millions of dollars in insurance won't bring life back. Nor will it make the painfull and possibly life changing injury acceptable.

 

[maurice]

Who crapped in your cereal?

As per the norm lately...i shall blame the Russians.

 

[cbabes]

LOL you think they dont?

Ever heard of CQB matches, 3 gun, cowboy action etc etc etc?

Some of them you are even shooitng on the move with other shooting on the move at the same time on the same firing line. How is it possible that there are not hundreds of deaths each year with all the people doing this stuff without the BB course?

You guys brought up the BB being so great for "safety". Its not my fault that reality dose not support your position.

On top of that you think BB is some sort of credentials now? All BB qualifies you for is to shoot ipsc nothing else, its a money grab pure and simple. Sorry dude I think you got into the koolaid a little much this holiday season.

Is BB required to shoot ipsc? yes
Can they and should they require it? yes, its up to them, its their game they can do what they want
Is it about safety? No, its about the rules of the game and revenue generation.

Shawn

I hate to crap on CQB because I've been to Borden more than once and it's quite obvious there are people who would be real scary shooting IPSC without a BB. Luckily it's a straight line there.

I know you want to prove your point but there aren't millions in Canada doing this type of shooting and the BB is not for CQB or anything else but IPSC.

My "credentials" and "holster qualification" was in quotes. The BB is not meant for either of those. It's meant to be used for IPSC matches only.

We should not use lack of deaths as a reason why it's safe enough not to have the BB course.

Anyway like Sean said our matches are oversubscribed and if nobody likes it, oh well.

 

[shawn]

I hate to crap on CQB because I've been to Borden more than once and it's quite obvious there are people there who would be real scary shooting IPSC without a BB. Luckily it's a straight line there. I know you want to prove your point but there aren't millions in Canada doing this type of shooting and the BB is not for CQB.

I never said it was.

You have proven my point, by being unable to provide any evidence that there is increased "safety"

My "credentials" and "holster qualification" was in quotes. The BB is not meant for either of those. It's meant to be used for IPSC matches only.

And? I never said it was you did.

We should not use deaths as a reason why it's safe enough not to have the BB course.

So the thing you are trying to prevent happening is, not happening or being prevented by BB. But that can not be used as evidence that BB is required? So what can we use? What color the fifty first unicorn is?

Anyway like Sean said our matches are oversubscribed and if nobody likes it, oh well.

Good for you and I am sincerely glad. Just dont kid yourself that its not about the $200-$600 per person.

I hate pointing out the obvious...but millions of dollars in insurance won't bring life back. Nor will it make the painfull and possibly life changing injury acceptable.

And a BB course does?

Shawn

 

[maurice]

Makes it less likely... and its also a good test and introduction to IPSC and the basic requirements to participate in IPSC..and you won't be shooting a sanctioned Ipsc match without one...in Canada.
I wasted time reading your posts in this thread
"Mr. Madison, what you’ve just said is one of the most insanely idiotic things I have ever heard. At no point in your rambling, incoherent response were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone in this room is now dumber for having listened to it. I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul"

 

[xldbldbl]

Hell, screw the BB and all training courses, and for that matter we can do away with driver testing too, there are a hand full of people that were driving farm tractors since they were able to walk and dont need to take the test so why should anyone have to take it, I mean, the only reason they give the drivers test anyway is just to get the money, right?

 

[VanMan]

I never said it was.

You have proven my point, by being unable to provide any evidence that there is increased "safety"



And? I never said it was you did.



So the thing you are trying to prevent happening is, not happening or being prevented by BB. But that can not be used as evidence that BB is required? So what can we use? What color the fifty first unicorn is?



Good for you and I am sincerely glad. Just dont kid yourself that its not about the $200-$600 per person.



And a BB course does?

Shawn

Having all competitors knowing a standardized set of rules and safety procedures makes IPSC matches safer. I don't have any stats that says shooting IPSC matches during the day is safer than shooting in unlit ranges at night, but common sense says it would be.

From what I have seen and my own experience, the majority of people coming into IPSC benefit from the BB course. There may be some folks really experienced coming in from other shooting sports that already know how to safely handle handguns in an action shooting sport, but they still need to know the rules and scoring for IPSC.

There are a lot easier ways for IPSC to make a "cash grab". From the $200-300 BB Course fee, instructors receive only a small part for their time and effort, the course fee includes the IPSC annual membership fee for that year, and sometimes the following year, and the rest goes to training supplies and running/maintaining the training program. IF IPSC Canada was really just interested in revenues, they would open up membership to everyone, sit back and collect annual membership fees without having to do anything. That would just end up in a mess for Match Directors, Range Masters and RO's.

 

[bsand]

Sorry let me be more clear. Those millions of people are not running around, drawing guns from holsters, shooting on the move, etc in an IPSC match. This is about the BB course. Many think it's a "holster qualification course" and they even go as far as taking it just for the "credentials" and never shoot an IPSC match again.

I'm talking about the IPSC shooters who don't need a BB compared to the ones who do here in Canada.

My bet is there are more DQs with the shooters who don't take the BB. At least in the first year. I hope after that the shooters with questionable safety would be schooled or just quit.

I've seen exactly 1 DQ at a USPSA match in the last 3 months. And that is 50+ shooters at each match. They didn't take a BB course at all, only a safety check. How many shooters dq at ispc matches with BB?

 

[1riot1ranger]

I can't believe that I'm responding to this... But here goes:

The only "safety systems" that we have in place in the action shooting sports are procedural. Strict adherence to a set of safety protocols are all that stand between success and failure (failure being defined as fatality, injury, or a near-miss).

If we only have procedural protections are in place, how do we ensure that participants are fluent in all of the procedures? Moreover, how do we demonstrate to those in power (the CFO) that the systems have been implemented consistently to all competitors? In IPSC the Black Badge is the mechanism that provides the necessary indoctrination to the safety protocols, assesses fluency with said protocols, and provides training documentation that can be reviewed in the event of an incident (or that an individual is not adequately prepared to compete in action shooting).

The other consideration here is volume. Many of the 3 gun matches that I've been to are small affairs (20-30 competitors). These can be reasonably policed by a set of competent ROs and CROs. IPSC matches here in AB can be 125 people. We don't have time to assess new shooters or perform orientations or provide instructions to new shooters. People show up, gear up, and compete. Instruction and orientation is performed outside of the match by a specialized training cadre - not the match officials.

To those of you who are responding negatively to the Black Badge course: thank-you for your input. You are entitled to your opinion. I hope that your "safety systems" are such that you can defend your position when, inevitably, something bad happens.

 

[kanada kidd]

I've seen exactly 1 DQ at a USPSA match in the last 3 months. And that is 50+ shooters at each match. They didn't take a BB course at all, only a safety check. How many shooters dq at ispc matches with BB?

IPSC matches tend to be a little tougher than USPSA and the RO'a are usually more lenient in USPSA. Not saying either is right or wrong, but they are much different.

 

[pauls]

3 gun matches in the US can have upwards of 500 competitors, handling 3 different firearm platforms at the same time on every stage.
There is no formal safety course or training.
I have never seen or heard of an incident in the many times I have attended.

By the same token, I've seen people on the range here during my experience as a competitor and as an RO, that make me skeptical as to whether they took any course at all and whether it was their first time handling a gun.

Passing a course or a test does not guarantee practical proficiency.
Some people are good at tests.
Some are good in the real world.
When the timer goes beep, we all find out which.

 

[xldbldbl]

Passing a course or a test does not guarantee practical proficiency.
Some people are good at tests.
Some are good in the real world.
When the timer goes beep, we all find out which.

Which is why many of the BB training exercises are timed.

 

[pauls]

Which is why many of the BB training exercises are timed.

If I'm not mistaken, people get to redo the exercise as many times as they need to until they pass, then they are released into the world. One possibly lucky successful run doesn't really prove much.

Someone please correct me if I'm wrong.


to be clear, I'm not saying the BB course isn't necessary or relevant.
Teaches the rules of the sport and reinforces base safety procedures
I'm saying that just because someone hasn't gone through it, doesn't mean they are a danger to the rest of us. (and vice versa)

 

[euxx]

3 gun matches in the US can have upwards of 500 competitors, handling 3 different firearm platforms at the same time on every stage.
There is no formal safety course or training.
I have never seen or heard of an incident in the many times I have attended.

A good chunk of those 500 competitors are ex-military or police, so some of the hardcore competitors did get training...

 

[euxx]

I'm saying that just because someone hasn't gone through it, doesn't mean they are a danger to the rest of us. (and vice versa)

It is kind of chicken and an egg issue... BB course is used as some proof that those people aren't that danger.

 

[pauls]

It is kind of chicken and an egg issue... BB course is used as some proof that those people aren't that danger.

I agree that its a first check to make sure they aren't totally unsafe, and have no hope of developing the coordination to eventually be safe.
But people get through who probably should have been told to try again.
No system is perfect.

 

[VanMan]

I agree that its a first check to make sure they aren't totally unsafe, and have no hope of developing the coordination to eventually be safe.
But people get through who probably should have been told to try again.
No system is perfect.

If you ever have any concerns about a specific competitor being unsafe, please make sure you have a discussion with the CRO/RO on that stage. Running a safe match is the primary concern for all match officials.

Just to be clear, passing the Black Badge course is just the first step, and allows you to compete in an IPSC match/qualifier as a novice. You need to successfully complete a match/qualifier within one year to complete the Black Badge program. If a student does not complete a match/qualifier within 1 year, or they DQ too many times within that year the area rep and/or section coordinator would have the student take remedial action.

 

[xldbldbl]

If I'm not mistaken, people get to redo the exercise as many times as they need to until they pass, then they are released into the world. One possibly lucky successful run doesn't really prove much.

Yes, but they dont "get" to do it until they pass, they "have" to do it until they pass and although, yes, they may have got one lucky run out of several to pass that particular exercise, they had to do it safely each and every time, and on each and every exercise or they would be DQ'd. The whole point of the BB is not about the hits, or doing the exercises within the given times, its about making them try to get enough hits in the time allowed multiple times to prove they can still be safe under the pressure of the timer as well as being physically and or mentally exhausted.