Vz.24 pistol from Wolverine Supplies Surplus Sale. New photos and poll added.

Should threads about dewat milsurps be allowed on CGN?


  • Total voters
    45
  • Poll closed .
I'm not slaging your decision to deactivate. just wondering why you didn't go the other way when you obviously really like the pistol.

Basically because I could acquire the pistol this way and it will work in a display I'm creating. Not sure about this but I was told for public display purposes any firearm has to be deactivated (unless its on a range). Again I'm not sure but I seem to recall that this was an issue for milsurp collections in museums - ie not having the funds to deactivate MGs, pistols, etc.

Plus sourcing a longer barrel for a 70+ year old pistol, or having one made from scratch, plus gunsmithing - well I think the cost would be prohibitive. So instead of me doing this thread and eventually bringing its history and use to the general public's attention, the pistol would be either sitting at Wolverine (where it resided for over a month with no takers) or what?

Eventually a lot of prohibs are going to be destroyed or deactivated unless the gun laws change. To be honest I told myself that I would never buy a dewat but sometimes compromises have to be made. It bothers me that I can't take it apart and see how it all works together/ admire Czech craftsmanship.
 
Please excuse my newbie ignorance, but what does a 'dewat'/deactivation procedure do to the firearm exactly? I don't mean its purpose, I understand they want the firearm deactivated. But how is the firearm changed precisely? Is it essentially like having a taxidermist stuff an animal, where all that remains its outward appearance? Or is it less extreme than that, such as removing the firing pin and blocking the barrel?
 
Hey, let's all go over to Fugawi's place and beat the crap outta him. After all, he dewatted a restricted-double-prohib to keep it from the shredder, EXACTLY THE WAY THE LIBDIPPERS INTENDED WHEN THEY MADE THE LAWS.

We live in Kanada, which is a civilised country. The only people here who need guns are the military (as few as possible) and the Polizei (whatever and as many as they want: we know who The Enemy really is). That's what Alan Rock told us. That's what the LAW was made to do: disarm US completely, one stage at a time, until there was nothing left.

This beautiful little piece was Restricted because it is a handgun.

It was Prohibited for barrel length.

It was Prohibited again because of calibre.

To make it LEGAL under our insane laws would have required it being converted into a rifle (forward hand-grip and 25-inch barrel to get the right over-all length: a .32 RIFLE is legal). The OTHER way to legalise it would have been a permanent conversion to a .22 with a 105mm barrel: difficult and expensive.

You must understand this: THE FLAW IS THE LAW.

Of course it doesn't make sense. It wasn't designed to make sense.

It was designed to destroy as many firearms as possible which were not part of the Government's own arsenal. Remember, the Government exempted itself from this one, same as they do with any restrictive, insane or stupid laws.

Fugawi did the only thing possible to save this piece: he dewatted it.

The Americans have a category of firearms called C&R: Curios and Relics. It applies to original pre-1946 pieces and designs. It will NEVER apply to the plastic crap so beloved of your friendly neighbourhood gangbanger; it CAN'T, simply because of date of design. This little gun would have fit perfectly into the C&R category: age, date, design, historical significance, the works.

As an interim measure, if nothing else, we need to copy the American C&R law. I said this previously, but it was ignored. This would prevent any more travesties such as this one.

And getting a C&R classification into Canadian law would be a lot easier than scrapping the whole system...... which is something which likely will never fly in this country.

Copying the C&R well COULD be done relatively quickly and with a minimum of fuss and bother, simply by selling it to the public as 'international harmonisation of restrictions on portable weapons'.... which likely WOULD fly politically if it were sold the right way.

But it has to be done quickly, before all of us Old Farts who are HOARDING these lovely old things drop dead.

So have at it, gentlemen, if you really CARE what is being done.

But remember always: THE LAW IS THE FLAW.

And CHANGE IT to something sane.
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I feel the same way with my mauser pistol as I cannot take her apart to inspect the workmanship. Oh well, Im happy to have her at any rate.
 
Please excuse my newbie ignorance, but what does a 'dewat'/deactivation procedure do to the firearm exactly? I don't mean its purpose, I understand they want the firearm deactivated. But how is the firearm changed precisely? Is it essentially like having a taxidermist stuff an animal, where all that remains its outward appearance? Or is it less extreme than that, such as removing the firing pin and blocking the barrel?

You cannot load, work the action, fire the pistol, or disassemble it.

I posted the pics of the barrel slagged to the frame in the last pics to show how Wolverine did it. Sometimes (as Nabs mentioned) they plug the barrel. Possibly that was done at the breech of my vz.24 but at the muzzle it wasn't and you can still see the rifling (which I commented was pretty good for a 70+ year old pistol).

Wolverine also welded or brazed the slide so it cannot be moved. They also did the same to the magazine. I've been told that not always the case with the magazine and I wish mine was still removeable. I suspect that Wolverine also welded the firing pin into the bolt but I can't disassemble the pistol to find out.

It still can be cocked and the trigger works (I ease the hammer, I don't drop it down). On some dewats the triggers are welded too. It weighs the way it should - its all steel except for the grips.

I will eventually take a file to the blob of metal at the muzzle to make it less noticeable. It looks worse than it is because of the camera angle.
 
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What I find a bit frustrating is that I posted this thread to discuss the Czech vz.24 pistol which is seldom seen, probably not well known, and is a significant firearm in the history of Czech firearms.

Instead the thread gets hijacked by those who want to express their disgust for dewats. If I wanted to talk about the merits/demerits of dewatting a pistol I would have started a thread called "To Dewat or Not to Dewat, that IS the Question".

What has been lost here is that the vz.24 was the newly independent Czechoslovakian Republic's first mass produced pistol, first commercial pistol (limited sales to Poland, Lithuania and possibly Rumania), and was the primary issue pistol of the prewar Czech military until replaced.

Captured vz.24's were used by Nazi Germany and its allies in WW2. It was used by the Kriegsmarine and was on the Luftwaffe's list for air crew weapons. 3000+ pistols were sold to Finland by Nazi Germany and used during the Continuation War.

While not a commercial success and definitely overbuilt for the relatively underpowered 9x17mm Browning Short, the vz.24 was the pistol that the now world renowned Ceska Zbrojovka first began to build its handgun manufacturing expertise with.

Too bad we aren't discussing the pistol.
 
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You cannot load, work the action, fire the pistol, or disassemble it.

Wow. I figured it might be something like they do for use in firearms courses, but that's definately extreme. Thanks for taking the time to answer my question. My apologies if my questions helped take the thread off course in any way.
 
No worries Dakk. Actually at least your posts were about the pistol. Hope my reply helped answer your questions. I have more about the vz.24 in my thread on the Polish Contract pistols (link in one of my previous posts).
 
there are more vz24 pistols and vz 27 than you would think in Canada. Century had them in there catalog for years $79.95 there are also some that are WWII German marked around. the Germans also produced versions with longer barrels for suppressors.
 
A rare gun is raped, that's all there is to it.

maybe somebody with the proper licence should have bought it. if things don't change, in the not too distant future, all those (and similar) have a date with the smelter. the only ones left will the the "raped" ones.
 
Amongst my favorite pistol of WW2, I have and did own a number of them, CZ24 and 27.
Thank you fugawi for your excellent representation and historical enlightenment:)
 
Copying the C&R well COULD be done relatively quickly and with a minimum of fuss and bother, simply by selling it to the public as 'international harmonisation of restrictions on portable weapons'.... which likely WOULD fly politically if it were sold the right way.

But it has to be done quickly, before all of us Old Farts who are HOARDING these lovely old things drop dead.

So have at it, gentlemen, if you really CARE what is being done.

But remember always: THE LAW IS THE FLAW.

And CHANGE IT to something sane.
.

Okay Smellie, I'm with you. Any advice on how we can start this process?

Also, to the OP. I feel bad for you. You're taking a lot of heat over simply posting a thread about the VZ24. I thank you sir for posting and for telling us about the firearm. I found it interesting and informative.

If nothing else, I think you've stirred some interest in saving these wonderful firearms. Maybe some good will come of it. I hope some can be saved.

Adrian
 
I'll write something up and get back on this thread later on. Have to go right now; we were just given a ton of badly-needed second-hand rebar and it has to be moved NOW.

BTW, FUGAWI deserves a lot of the credit. It was his excellent photos of that lovely old CZ, all marred and welded up solid, that sparked all of this. Hopefully, if we act together and ask the right way and have our ducks all in a row, we might be able to prevent this happening too many more times.

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I agree, fugawi did a great job with his presentation. He took a seemingly unwanted pistol and presented her as a historical piece with her own page of history. That, in my opinion, is one of the true joys of collecting as you can find some "diamonds in the rough".

I certainly was unaware of such a pistol until I read this thread. Pistols like these are overshadowed by WW2 pistols like the iconic Walther P38s, Lugers P08s, Tokarev TT-33s, and Colt 1911s to note a few examples.
 
Very nice Vz-24 Fugawi. I have to admit I was actually surprised that they were being manufactured so late - I had it in my head that the VZ-27 was for Czech army issue, which apparently was incorrect! It's unfortunate you can't shoot it, because I have to imagine being a locked-breech .380 would cut down somewhat on the felt recoil.

It's too bad so many CZs are prohibs, every time I have the opportunity to examine one they impress me. I was recently at the JM Davis Firearms Museum in Claremore, Ok, and they had a wheel of about 20 early CZs in one display case. I looked for a Polish contract gun as you described in your other thread, but no luck. The description could have used some work - all the Vz-38s were described as "CZ-38 - Not considered an efficient design". I have to disagree on that point!
 
I have one, manufactured in 27 and accepted for service in 28. It has wooden grips compared to your composite/plastic ones. Unit marked "HN 260", not sure what that is though.

Nice pistols.
 
I have one, manufactured in 27 and accepted for service in 28. It has wooden grips compared to your composite/plastic ones. Unit marked "HN 260", not sure what that is though.

Nice pistols.

I don't speak Czech. I've been translating (using Google) various Czech web sites to further my knowledge of the vz.24. There is a book by R.J. Berger but I believe its out of print.

But my guess for "HN 260" is that it means "Border Unit/Detachment 260". 'Hraničářský' is border in Czech/Slovak and 'notky' is entity in Slovak according to Google.

Where is this stamped on your pistol?
 
Very nice Vz-24 Fugawi. I have to admit I was actually surprised that they were being manufactured so late - I had it in my head that the VZ-27 was for Czech army issue, which apparently was incorrect!...

Apparently the Czechs restarted production because of the impending war with Nazi Germany. In 1935 Ceska Zbrojovka received an order for 1400 vz.24 pistols from the Ministry of Defense. Another 70,000 pistols were ordered in 1936 and completed in 1938.

As for the vz.27:

I read that a number of faults were found with the vz.24: unnecessary complexity of the mechanism (compared with similar foreign products), reliability and complex maintenance, with the possibility of losing small parts during disassembly in the field. Another shortcoming was the trigger design and the striking mechanism, which did not allow the gun to be safely carried with cartridge in the chamber.

It seems the vz.27 was an attempt to simplify the production and rectify some of the shortcomings including that the locked breech mechanism was not needed for the 9x17mm Browning Short. In the vz.27 Ceska Zbrojovka went to a simple blowback operation. Both pistols appear very similar in outward appearance.

I just don't understand why the Czechs went to .32 ACP when many Europeans military handgun designs were chambered for 9mm Parabellum.

Commercial sales perhaps?
 
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