What do you think causes the flies shown in this thread? Please share your views and enlighten readers.
Weird things with .22LR match ammo
- Thread starter grauhanen
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What do you think causes the flies shown in this thread? Please share your views and enlighten readers.
#### move? Your indignation is groundless.
Canuck continued to believe he didn't misread anything and that's okay. I only showed where he did. It's nothing more.
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Leuchtkafer
Member
Your Cluster B results are off the charts man. If you miss your friend so much, you can find him on RFC. As far as I can gather, the fella knew his way around a rifle. I should be so honoured you equate me with one of the greats.This seems to be more evidence that you are the banned poster RabidM4U5 now posting under a new name. It's something that hasn't been denied since the question was first raised nearly eight weeks ago.
In any case, while Rabid understood a rimfire rifle as well as most, he was always quick to react to real and imagined affronts. Among his shortcomings relevant here was that, despite being a bit insecure, he was utterly without humility. The claim that Rabid is "one of the greats" is precisely his kind of self promotion that should be expected of him.
I found RabidM4U5 to be very knowledgeable about rimfires and barrel harmonics. No contesting the man can shoot!! Arguments are gonna happen. We are all lovers of guns and shooting in the end. Some are hot headed while others have a more laid back demeanour. The hot headed I understand.. haha think I’m the leader of that gang. Keep burnin powder and have fun
The little bit of testing mv on rimfire has been interesting but hasn't led me to any usable conclusions.
I haven't found enough consistency to be able to say ammo x is going to reliably give me mv y, so I can expect poi z.
I found mv really had no correlation with poi, and even if it did, mv wasn't consistent enough to be able to predict what that velocity would be with other cartridges.
Mv can't be predicted reliably, it can only be known by firing. Poi can't be predicted by mv, as similar/same velocities don't always give same poi.
My conclusion:
Mv can't predict poi.
Mv can't be known until firing.
Weighing cartridges does not give any indication of mv or poi.
Chronographing might at best give a spread of velocities to expect, and may aid in figuring bullet drop with a calculator.
But mv data collected doesn't give any real useful info to aid me.
Just what I've seen, maybe my ammo wasn't good enough (Eley Match), maybe better ammo gives different results. Does something like Midas+ give better results where mv does actually correspond with point of impact?
I haven't found enough consistency to be able to say ammo x is going to reliably give me mv y, so I can expect poi z.
I found mv really had no correlation with poi, and even if it did, mv wasn't consistent enough to be able to predict what that velocity would be with other cartridges.
Mv can't be predicted reliably, it can only be known by firing. Poi can't be predicted by mv, as similar/same velocities don't always give same poi.
My conclusion:
Mv can't predict poi.
Mv can't be known until firing.
Weighing cartridges does not give any indication of mv or poi.
Chronographing might at best give a spread of velocities to expect, and may aid in figuring bullet drop with a calculator.
But mv data collected doesn't give any real useful info to aid me.
Just what I've seen, maybe my ammo wasn't good enough (Eley Match), maybe better ammo gives different results. Does something like Midas+ give better results where mv does actually correspond with point of impact?
I’m using the same ammunition as you are and seeing the same results on target. I will get a Garmin chrono to track MV better, but I expect a percentage of my shots to go off target either way. Sometimes I wonder if my 12T barrel exacerbates imperfect 22LR bullets, although the extra stability helps at distance. Maybe a 24”+ barrel would change things. So many variables.
Did you find the 12Twist improved group size at extended range. Did groups at shorter range improve or stay consistent. Would you go the same route again or return to the standard 16T if building again?
You've described what is the crux of a key problem with .22LR ammo. There are reasons why MV and POI don't always match. They can occur with every brand and variety (e.g. Midas + or Eley Tenex). The key to finding better ammo is as always in testing. Some ammos (lots, not varieties) simply do better than others as distance grows.
The reasons why MV and POI don't always match are invariably due to imperfections in the bullets themselves. Sometimes the soft and somewhat delicate heel of the bullet is misshapen or deformed. Bullets with imperfect heels can't fly true.
More often it's the bullet's imperfect center of gravity that's the problem. Unlike jacketed centerfire bullets, soft lead bullets like those used on .22LR match ammo is difficult to manufacture without center of gravity offset. The Cg problems can easily vary from lot to lot or even from bullet to bullet within a lot or box. When bullets don't have nearly perfect centers of gravity they can't fly true. When Cg varies from bullet to bullet, they can't fly similarly.
To add to the problem, and to help address the question raised about the 12T barrel, it is possible that a barrel will itself increase the bullet center of gravity problem. It's not related to the twist rate but rather to the fact that each barrel can affect bullet Cg. Some barrels are better than others regardless of twist rate.
This is because each barrel's chamber/leade and bore uniquely obturates each bullet that passes through. Bullet obturation occurs when bullets pass through the barrel from chamber to muzzle. Obturation affects the bullet Cg. Some barrels can affect Cg for better, some worse. This helps explain why some barrels shoot the same ammo better or worse than others.
So with everything boiled away, the only thing that matters is finding an ammo a particular rifle likes, then hope you can find more of that ammo.
Not chronographing, or trying to track patterns between mv and poi.
Not chronographing, or trying to track patterns between mv and poi.
Finding the BC of every bullet will tell you how much of any POI changes you see might be due to bullet imperfections. Finding the BC of every bullet literally tells you whether the bullet was in good shape, average shape, or beat up. And finding the BC for a whole bunch of them tells you how good or bad any manufacturer is at keeping bullets in good shape. I don't know why you say it is invariably because of bullet imperfections. There's more than one reason for it happening, and that statement of yours literally means that is the only reason, which is not correct. I don't think your words were chosen carefully there. But finding the BC of every bullet will tell you how much of a difference you should've seen on target because of it, and the target itself will tell you whether or not there was that much difference. And when the two don't align, that tells you there are also other variables at play, which I've already tried to illustrate.
And it is possible to determine how much of a correlation, if any, there is between MV and elevation on target, which is one of the things I actually do to attempt to confirm whether or not my tuner setting is helping or hurting. Saying "I don't think I see any correlation between MV and POI." because you don't think you've seen any on target is different than actually keeping track of good data and letting actual correlation math tell you what the actual answer is. It is possible to work out how much of a correlation there is and how much you should trust that answer.
As for whether or not bullet weight has anything to do with MV change, of course it does. Whether or not it is a predictor is another matter, but since we can't know ahead of time how much primer and powder we have in there, that makes it less probable. However, you can also run tests with different weights to see whether or not there is any correlation between weight and MV. And you can test to see whether or not there is a smaller or larger SD in MV when using light, average, or heavy rounds. While I've done a lot of weight sorting in the past, I've never done any weight testing with a chronograph, as I never had one at the time I was always weight sorting. This is one of the things I want to test soon, and is why I've been weight sorting so much of that Eley Club I have. I want to see if there are any trends in a box of light, a box of average, and a box of heavy, versus unsorted. I already know weight sorting does help with precision by a small amount. Rim sorting does, too. And other methods, too. I'm looking forward to a better examination with better tools that I have at my disposal now versus years ago. I didn't have OnTarget TDS back then for measuring target results. I didn't have a LabRadar back then for measuring MV and BC. And I didn't have any of the other computer help that relies on OnTarget and LabRadar data, either, obviously. All these tools make examining things in greater detail a lot easier.
Any time there is a similar discussion to this there are invariably many "We can't know." comments, but "we can't know" isn't always the case. There are many ways to examine things, and maybe someone simply hasn't thought of a way yet. Someone else may have thought of a way. Maybe there are things we can't know. And maybe there are ways of knowing things of which you simply are unaware of thus far. This is why discussing things is great, because somebody in the group might have an idea nobody else in the group had considered yet, and it makes everybody a little more knowledgeable in the end.
Well, probably the most important thing to do despite the fact that we can do some things to improve results in various ways is to simply find the brand/line/lot number that shoots best in a given barrel, yes. But there are reasons for chronographing and trying to track patterns of all sorts of things. It helps us get a better understanding of what is happening, and can lead to understanding why it is happening, which can lead to better practices or designs.
And it is possible to determine how much of a correlation, if any, there is between MV and elevation on target, which is one of the things I actually do to attempt to confirm whether or not my tuner setting is helping or hurting. Saying "I don't think I see any correlation between MV and POI." because you don't think you've seen any on target is different than actually keeping track of good data and letting actual correlation math tell you what the actual answer is. It is possible to work out how much of a correlation there is and how much you should trust that answer.
As for whether or not bullet weight has anything to do with MV change, of course it does. Whether or not it is a predictor is another matter, but since we can't know ahead of time how much primer and powder we have in there, that makes it less probable. However, you can also run tests with different weights to see whether or not there is any correlation between weight and MV. And you can test to see whether or not there is a smaller or larger SD in MV when using light, average, or heavy rounds. While I've done a lot of weight sorting in the past, I've never done any weight testing with a chronograph, as I never had one at the time I was always weight sorting. This is one of the things I want to test soon, and is why I've been weight sorting so much of that Eley Club I have. I want to see if there are any trends in a box of light, a box of average, and a box of heavy, versus unsorted. I already know weight sorting does help with precision by a small amount. Rim sorting does, too. And other methods, too. I'm looking forward to a better examination with better tools that I have at my disposal now versus years ago. I didn't have OnTarget TDS back then for measuring target results. I didn't have a LabRadar back then for measuring MV and BC. And I didn't have any of the other computer help that relies on OnTarget and LabRadar data, either, obviously. All these tools make examining things in greater detail a lot easier.
Any time there is a similar discussion to this there are invariably many "We can't know." comments, but "we can't know" isn't always the case. There are many ways to examine things, and maybe someone simply hasn't thought of a way yet. Someone else may have thought of a way. Maybe there are things we can't know. And maybe there are ways of knowing things of which you simply are unaware of thus far. This is why discussing things is great, because somebody in the group might have an idea nobody else in the group had considered yet, and it makes everybody a little more knowledgeable in the end.
Well, probably the most important thing to do despite the fact that we can do some things to improve results in various ways is to simply find the brand/line/lot number that shoots best in a given barrel, yes. But there are reasons for chronographing and trying to track patterns of all sorts of things. It helps us get a better understanding of what is happening, and can lead to understanding why it is happening, which can lead to better practices or designs.
Than can work...but....even when you find that ammo brand and lot, within the lot that your rifle really likes, there can be crazy fliers which fly way far away from the group or 10X ring.
Its very common in my local club 50m matches for score (25 mini bulls, one shot each), for a shooter to be on track to shoot a perfect score (250) with very high X count, except for one single crazy flier in the 9 or 8 ring, sometimes 7 ring which converts what would have been a 250 to 249 or less. That one bad shot. The shooter had everything nailed (technique, wind reading), and was shooting near perfectly. Almost everyone to which this happens says they saw that flier in their scope dive like a lead balloon, or slice away like a sliced golf ball trajectory that had nothing to do with wind (e.g. on wind-dead mornings). In our scopes of 36, 45 and 50X magnification, with good light its possible to see the bad bullet's flight at the end of the 50m trajectory and see it radically curve away. These are bad bullets with Cg problems or dented or misshaped heels or bases.
Long story short, the best brand/lot in the world that your rifle loves can be winning you the match until that one bad flier in the box destroys your victory!
I found the 12T tightened up my vertical 40% at 200+ vs my factory T1X barrel. I do get random flyers that open up many of my 10 shot 100yd groups past 1 1/4”. Some are right at 1”, like one today, but usually only 8 shots out of the 10 make the 1” mark. The next barrel will be 14T and 24”+ long. The shooters I know and trust aren’t shooting much better with custom 16T barrels at 100+. Maybe it’s the Rimfire gods revenge and not something I’m doing. Will see I guess.
Fair enough, I wouldn't say my research exhausted the subject.
I've weighed and sorted cartridges, shot them through a chronograph and recorded velocities and point of impact.
I personally haven't seen a trend emerge that I felt was consistent enough to continue pursuing it. Maybe a matter of diminishing returns.....
Nothing wrong with someone else doing more/better. All depends on a person's interest in it I guess.
I've weighed and sorted cartridges, shot them through a chronograph and recorded velocities and point of impact.
I personally haven't seen a trend emerge that I felt was consistent enough to continue pursuing it. Maybe a matter of diminishing returns.....
Nothing wrong with someone else doing more/better. All depends on a person's interest in it I guess.
The improvements I saw with weight sorting and with rim sorting weren't earth-shattering. They were small gains. It was more economical to simply buy slightly better ammo. But as I say, I wouldn't mind revisiting these tests now that I've got a chronograph and OnTarget and other programs to use with that data, and a better understanding of how all that can work together. The gains are still going to be small, hehe, but maybe along the way it might be something that lets you come across fewer fliers when they might matter to you. I don't think anything we can do is going to eliminate them completely. But maybe putting 5% of the ammo aside for practice only could result in way fewer fliers in matches.
That's the real problem I think: those damn fliers. A guy gets on a roll, 4 shots in and you're thinking hell yeah, your buddy that is spotting your shots is fist pumpin, then number 5 shows up and says not today!
If you figure out a way to eliminate the flyer, you will be a God in the rimfire world.
I just haven't found a reliable way to separate those bastards from the rest of the box. PM me if you do.
If you figure out a way to eliminate the flyer, you will be a God in the rimfire world.
I just haven't found a reliable way to separate those bastards from the rest of the box. PM me if you do.
Yes sir. The wind can be dead calm and one shot will head 3/4” outside to group to one side. With decent ammo I see less high/low flyers and more left/right.
