huh? what kind of shotgun round do you plan to use for home defence? a slug or a target load? me,i use a target load.prefer defending myself against an assault charge over a murder charge.
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What auto shotgun do you think is best for home defence
- Thread starter Roger_Ramjet
- Start date
huh? what kind of shotgun round do you plan to use for home defence? a slug or a target load? me,i use a target load.prefer defending myself against an assault charge over a murder charge.
Cameron SS
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
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I wish I could send an electrical shock to the internet everytine I read one of these stupid, useless, misleading and dangerous posts. Sarcastic or not it is the most toxic type of nonsense that people post on this forum. It helps no one, and many who read it take as true and will not only make poor decisions because of it but they will repeat it to others as well.
Your life is precious. You have a right to defend it
Your home is your refuge. You have a right to defend it.
Nothing restricts your right as a human being to defend yourself from legitimate threats.
Your life and the lives of your loved ones are more valuable than whatever legal hassle you may have in justifying your actions.
I have bandoliers with a mix of slugs 00 buck and #9 shot. Slugs are for long shots outside. #9 is for when over penetration is a concern. 00 buck is a middle of the road option that I dont forsee being required.
If you are shooting to wound, you are doing it wrong for a couple of reasons, but at short range even rock salt can be fatal.
Either way there is this thing called attempted murder. I dont think there are many crown attorneys out there who would interpret discharging a shotgun at anyone with live ammo as anything less than an intent to kill.
I have 1000s of rounds through a Mossberg 930, 1100's and a Versamax Tactical. Any are reliable enough that I would use them for home defense. That said they are all rather large and unwieldly even at 18". The M4 is the only 14" semi Im aware of, and then you need to consider its restricted and its scary looking.
Does either of those items matter if you're facing down a life threatening intruder? I suppose not. But its likely to matter later. Presenting a restricted, black and scary looking, military/LE style shotgun in court is going to possibly effect the outcome vs. a wood stocked goose gun or granpappy's SXS.
Legally, it shouldn't be a factor at all, but its one more thing.
For example, I have a WIn1300 defender that is set up with a wood full stock and appears quite gentlemanly alongside the M4, but would likely achieve the same result in a short encounter in the hallway of your house.
Just thinking out loud. I've closely scrutinized several self defence cases and believe the style of gun used had an effect on the outcome, and certainly think its a consideration.
I'd also add that target loads impart tremendous energy at short distances, I've seen them to provide devastating and fatal injury, and I agree entirely with previous poster that no LEO or court is going to consider their use to be anything short of lethal intent. While its possible to get an assault with a weapon charge, that is more likely the charge to be laid if you don't shoot the individual. attempted murder to be the likely charge if you do. (assuming any charges filed of course).
Which kinda contradicts my comments on the shotgun, a #8 target load does appear more gentlemanly than LE stamped 00 buck..
Does either of those items matter if you're facing down a life threatening intruder? I suppose not. But its likely to matter later. Presenting a restricted, black and scary looking, military/LE style shotgun in court is going to possibly effect the outcome vs. a wood stocked goose gun or granpappy's SXS.
Legally, it shouldn't be a factor at all, but its one more thing.
For example, I have a WIn1300 defender that is set up with a wood full stock and appears quite gentlemanly alongside the M4, but would likely achieve the same result in a short encounter in the hallway of your house.
Just thinking out loud. I've closely scrutinized several self defence cases and believe the style of gun used had an effect on the outcome, and certainly think its a consideration.
I'd also add that target loads impart tremendous energy at short distances, I've seen them to provide devastating and fatal injury, and I agree entirely with previous poster that no LEO or court is going to consider their use to be anything short of lethal intent. While its possible to get an assault with a weapon charge, that is more likely the charge to be laid if you don't shoot the individual. attempted murder to be the likely charge if you do. (assuming any charges filed of course).
Which kinda contradicts my comments on the shotgun, a #8 target load does appear more gentlemanly than LE stamped 00 buck..
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Chargerguy
CGN frequent flyer
None. As I stated. Something totally different for me.
I think CamersonSS nailed it on the rest.
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Ok comrade.. however I believe having two different types of ammo is pointless as you will not have the time to decide on what to load up.
I'm speaking in terms of a home invasion or B&E that happens when your family is sleeping.
000 buckshot will do the trick. Decent range and knockdown power.
But in my opinion, your shotgun will serve as more of a visual deterrent as most people will not have the time to load it.
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Study these videos and use them to help you make your decisions.
Paul and I share similar training in many aspects and don't vary much in our outlook.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=49kcp5vep_I
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fDnyRXF_0Ck&t=75s
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4qSVOZfp3R4
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ny67ZNy4zwQ
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=13LaTffG1K0&t=3s
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a1F-MQ80IS4
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qw8IiRgSMFQ
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zaR1EVybUgc
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CiHHgjaR0TI
-S.
Paul and I share similar training in many aspects and don't vary much in our outlook.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=49kcp5vep_I
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fDnyRXF_0Ck&t=75s
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4qSVOZfp3R4
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ny67ZNy4zwQ
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=13LaTffG1K0&t=3s
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a1F-MQ80IS4
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qw8IiRgSMFQ
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zaR1EVybUgc
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CiHHgjaR0TI
-S.
Am I the only one who finds the "over penetration" videos to be really stupid?
My opinion on them is that they are done in the wrong context. Why would you be blasting through your walls knowing some family could be on the other side? Basic firearm safety.
To me, over penetration would only happen if the round exits the target. But even so, your most likely wouldn't pull the trigger if a stray round could hit your family members.
Most houses have the bedrooms all in the same area of the house. What are people going to be doing? Running around all willy nilly, jumping behind couches, and flipping tables over having a gun fight with some stranger in your house?
People watch too many movies..
All you need is a single shot. Once the trigger is pulled, you'll be holding your head as it explodes, sh*Tting your pants (granted, the invader is doing the same) and getting ready to go "Hulk" on him with the rush of adrenaline coursing through your body. Game over, Avengers style.....
Cameron SS
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Ground Zero
Ammo management does add a layer of complexity to your response. THis is not some insurmountable challenge that only John Wick is capable of, but you do need to train for it.
The trick is to reload when you can, not when you have to. For anything inside the house, #9 shot. Thats the default and first choice. Nothing to decide. When moving outdoors, where a longer shot may be needed, and over penetration is not a concern, you can load and cycle a slug preemptively, as opposed to when you have a threat standing in front of you.
Having watched various penetration demos of shotgun ammo on typical wall construction, The only time I would ever use anything bigger than #9 is if I KNEW I was alone in the house before the trouble started.
Yes, the visual and audible sounds of a shotgun, or any firearm, will serve as a deterrent, and in many cases will be sufficient to cause the intruder to abandon their cause. I think that deterrent would be undermined slightly if the intruder was able and see and determine that the shotgun was not in fact loaded. Personally I'd see a person frantically loading an empty firearm as an opportunity, not a deterrent, but i doubt most criminals think that way.
The time it takes to load a firearm would be a challenge for any firearm. Some are better suited than others obviously, but regardless of what you prefer, practice practice practice.
Once again I think your are planning for a fictional situation.
Can a home invasion happen or a burglar enter your home? Of course. Are you going to be running around and reloading.. not likely. I believe that by the time a guy figures out what is going on and gets geared up the altercation will already be underway.. unless of course, your firearm is already loaded.
Cameron SS
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Ground Zero
There is definitely some criticism merited against many of the over penetration videos out there. I actually found The one that was linked titled what Home Defense: Over Penetration through walls fairly useful. While he does use some bizarre language about being saved by walls, or trying to penetrate walls, he does prevent a series of tests, with controlled variables, and a consistent methodology. You can take his information presented and lessons learned and apply it to your application and make a good decision. For me, whether I am thinking the same use as him, at least his information is useful, and therefore I liked the video.
First, BASIC firearm safety is the wrong context if you are thinking home defense. Yes, don't touch the trigger, yes assume its loaded, yes don't point it at something you don't want to destroy, but what about know your backstop and what's beyond? What if you know your backstop is insufficient and you can't determine what is beyond? Does that mean you can never shoot? That would always be the case in any house. If you refuse to a shot when a stray round could hit your family members then unless you are certain the house is empty there is almost no point going to the gun in the first place.
Sometimes you have to take a risky shot because the threat in front of you is too dangerous to do nothing. Taking a shot without knowing if your family is on the other side of the wall is a risk to your family. NOT taking a clear shot at a dangerous intruder is ALSO a risk to your family. Defense is about risk mitigation. Weighing your best course of option against the pros and cons. Selecting ammo with reduced penetration power is a perfectly reasonable risk mitigation strategy that should increase your willingness to take a shot if its needed.
And no, over penetration does not ONLY happen if the round exits the target. That assumes perfection. Perfect shot, perfect shot placement, zero pellets off target. That is unrealistic under ideal conditions, let alone in a DGU situation.
Yes, most houses have all the bedrooms in the same area of the house. That is part of the problem. Typical north american home design has a central landing on the second floor which is surrounded by bedrooms. An intruder on the landing will mean most people are shooting in the direction of other bedrooms in order engage the intruder.
Yes, watching less Hollywood movies is well advised. Watching more ACTUAL defensive gun use security videos is also well advised. There are many videos that show gun fights that are highly fluid. I've yet to see a single one where the defender executed perfect shot placement. Most of them are in the dark. There is the occasional tossing of furniture. They are messy affairs, and often short lived.
Without early warning, storing firearms in accordance with Canadian gun laws almost guarantees they will be inaccessible and useless to you.
Another thing to consider as a risk mitigation strategy is angles. Getting low and aiming high on the body will almost completely mitigate the risk of an over penetration striking a friendly target that is behind the intruder and on the same floor as you. If you are ground floor and family is above you, then get tall and aim low.
Cameron SS
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Ground Zero
There is nothing fictional about home invasions.
There is nothing fictional about home invasions that end up outside.
Yes, the intruder choses the time and place of the attack so by the time you perceive the attack, yes, it is already underway. ANd you will have the rest of your life to survive it. How much time you have before imminent threat turns into threat in progress is largely a function of your early warning systems and luck.
Whether the shot gun is preloaded, or whether you decide to start unloaded but with a certain predetermined default ammo type is up to you. Either way, with any shotgun that has a limited capacity, 9-10 rounds at most, you should be topping off the tube after every shot anyways. You won't know how many rounds you needed until its over. With a pre loaded bandolier belt, choosing your ammo type is a simple question of which side of the bandolier you load from. Not rocket science or time consuming. Its almost like there is an entire body of professional experience well documented on the internet that covers this.
In any event. There is a difference between fictional, and unlikely. I readily concede that long drawn out gun battles in a home defense situation are highly unlikely, even more unlikely in Canada, and even MORE unlikely where I live. If I wasn't already a gun owner, I wouldn't be going out and buying a gun just for home defense. But since I have them, it costs me nothing to have a plan, and dedicate some of my training to that potential situation.
And as always, to each their own. If you don't like juggling ammo, then don't. Pick a general purpose round and forget about it. Its your life. Fight to win.
I've done a lot of barrier testing in the past, and found that #4 buckshot is surprisingly limited in building and furniture materials penetration much beyond the range at which it leaves the shot cup.
It's my go-to for an indoor load where overpenetration is a concern.
It's my go-to for an indoor load where overpenetration is a concern.
Cameron SS
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Ground Zero
Entirely your call, but in my experience against 1/2" dry wall, #4 buck is not much different than 00 Buck. It will penetrate more layers than your typical house has. If you were talking #4 birdshot, then yes, that will be limited. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C29mEJFFIvo
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0dbtBWp_beo This one is not the best because he shoots on top of previous shots, but you get the idea.
With little ones in my house my tolerance for overpenetration is zero, and typically # 8 or smaller out of an 18" or shorter barrel with a minimum distance of 15 feet is about the only way to guarantee and a direct hit on a wall will not penetrate. I use #9 and a 12" barrel for that reason.
@ Cameron SS
i have worried a lot about penetrating interior walls where my family is located
What are your thoughts on 22lr for indoors?
I have a shot gun but also a fun little GSG-16
I know the stopping power is no where near a shot gun but 3 or 4 centre mass on someone that isnt in any armor would definitely get their attention.
i have worried a lot about penetrating interior walls where my family is located
What are your thoughts on 22lr for indoors?
I have a shot gun but also a fun little GSG-16
I know the stopping power is no where near a shot gun but 3 or 4 centre mass on someone that isnt in any armor would definitely get their attention.
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