What is a good option for a 22?

Sure, I think those look pretty darn similar. Certainly the broad strokes anyway. There's definitely a design link there.

But that's four manufacturers... That's the same number of manufacturers that make Brno/CZ actions style .22 actions. That's a pretty tight design lineage. In any case, I'm not sure how having more manufacturers than Lakefield draw on the 64 action design suggests that Lakefield didn't... Unless those Voere and Krico rifles predate the 64.


The suggestion isn't that rifle makers such as Voere or Krico drew on the Anschutz 64 design but rather that they are a couple of designs that are similar. With a relatively simple and inexpensive bolt action, there's only so many ways to configure the design.

The Anschutz 64 receiver and bolt design goes back to not much before 1957 - 1958. Prior to introducing the 64, Anschutz used a very common, almost generic, Flobert action on it's pre-war .22 rifles. A lot of other manufacturers in Germany, and probably in other European countries, used variations on the Flobert action on inexpensive rimfire rifles. It is similar in design to the Anschutz 64. I don't know the history of the Voere or Krico models.
 
BigBraz15 - feels a little chunky in the hands.

Two questions
- Which model CZ do you have?
- Feels clunky, compared to what?

I had the CZ 455 Canadian. I say had because I listed it last night and it's gone. I have gone to a more lightweight type of hunting rifles that feel trim and fit. The CZ felt thick in both the pistol grip area, as well as the forend. I wish I could pick up an exact copy of one of my hunting guns but in a 22 or 17 HMR, but looks like that's not possible.
 
The suggestion isn't that rifle makers such as Voere or Krico drew on the Anschutz 64 design but rather that they are a couple of designs that are similar. With a relatively simple and inexpensive bolt action, there's only so many ways to configure the design.

The Anschutz 64 receiver and bolt design goes back to not much before 1957 - 1958. Prior to introducing the 64, Anschutz used a very common, almost generic, Flobert action on it's pre-war .22 rifles. A lot of other manufacturers in Germany, and probably in other European countries, used variations on the Flobert action on inexpensive rimfire rifles. It is similar in design to the Anschutz 64. I don't know the history of the Voere or Krico models.

Here s an example of an anschutz bolt action made around 1940

image.jpg
 
Here s an example of an anschutz bolt action made around 1940

That is a fine example of an Anschutz-manufactured military training rifle produced during WWII. It uses an action similar to those on other military trainers produced by various German manufacturers during, and probably before, the war. It's also one that Anschutz didn't use any longer once it began manufacturing rifles again in the mid-fifties. In the post-war period, Anschutz has used the Flobert I and II, the 54 in both sporter and match variations, including a post-1954 military trainer, the 64, the Fortner, and the new 1761 actions.

Immediately below is an image showing variations of a JGA 4mm Flobert rifle with the same action. Below it are examples of the much more ubiquitous Flobert actions used by Anschutz, first the Flobert I followed by the Flobert II. The latter had a receiver design that could use a dovetail groove mounted scope or aperture/rear sights. My first Anschutz was a CIL Anschutz 125 (which is the same as the Anschutz Model 1400), a Flobert action repeater, shown last.





 
Early 90s RX7 with a twin-turbo 1.3 rotary engine... What's not to love?

The speeding tickets, the horrendous gas mileage that he 13B got when you were having that fun, and the cost of a rebuild!

Other than that, nothing important! :) Had a 13B in a Mazda RX3. Pass anything but a gas station, but handled like a pig on stilts! LOL! It was fun!

As to the OP's issue, why not hunt around for a different stock, or make one that feels right to you?
 
The suggestion isn't that rifle makers such as Voere or Krico drew on the Anschutz 64 design but rather that they are a couple of designs that are similar. With a relatively simple and inexpensive bolt action, there's only so many ways to configure the design.

I get that, absolutely there's only so many ways to configure things, but the configuration of the Mk II / 64 is pretty distinctively similar and unique. The Flobert II receivers are similar looking, but the bolts are entirely different to the Mk II / 64 action. The Voere bolt looks very similar, I don't know what the Krico looks like.

The Anschutz 64 receiver and bolt design goes back to not much before 1957 - 1958. Prior to introducing the 64, Anschutz used a very common, almost generic, Flobert action on it's pre-war .22 rifles. A lot of other manufacturers in Germany, and probably in other European countries, used variations on the Flobert action on inexpensive rimfire rifles. It is similar in design to the Anschutz 64. I don't know the history of the Voere or Krico models.

I had thought it dated to '61-'62? Anyway, a minor difference, immaterial here. The question is which came first. I don't know, but I sure feel safe guessing that the Krico and Voere actions came out after the 64?

As you note, it wasn't until well post WW2 that Anschutz got the reputation and fame it has today after the company restarted from scratch in the 50s. It'd be unthinkable now to have a CIL or Savage branded Annie because consumers here didn't know what an Anschutz was.

Back to Lakefield - they started in the late 60s with a group of people who had zero background in firearms design. It was a project to retain employment after the closure of a boat yard. It's not like Lakefield drew on their past designs and experience in designing the Mk II... Drawing on an action released shortly prior by an up and coming German .22 mfg... It's not like a brand new Canadian gun maker with no prior experience just happened to invent a nearly identical action out of thin air. Yes, they had a lot of employees and equipment from Cooey eventually, but the Mk II clearly isn't based on any of the previous Cooey designs. There's little resemblance between the Model 60/600 and the Mk II. Regardless, that was all a decade after Lakefield developed the Mk II, Cooey was a going concern for another ten years after Lakefield started. Indeed, if Lakefield HAD drawn on existing designs from North America, well, that's what patent lawsuits are for. NO idea how international patent protection worked back then, but I'm guessing it was not well.

A new mfg has to either develop an independent design themselves, use an old design with expired patents, enter into a manufacturing license agreement, or use a design not patent protected in the country of manufacture. Pretty easy to rule out the first three with Lakefield.
 
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As to the OP's issue, why not hunt around for a different stock, or make one that feels right to you?

Yeah, why not slim down the stock if that's the deal breaker for you? Dead easy and a fun project. I don't know many wood stocks off the shelf that are substantially "slimmer" than the CZ, except maybe the Steyr. There are some very slim synthetic stocks, but solving a feel problem by going to a Marlin 795 seems a bit extreme.

Dunno what your intended use is, but the Browning SA22 is a wonderfully slim .22, just really with no parallel as a repeater IMO. It's absolutely perfect for carrying in one hand all day chasing snowshoe hairs in thick cover. It's an incredibly fun plinker as well. If you wish to scope it, you can find older models that are grooved or D&T on the receiver, rather than on the barrel like the current ones. Finding a very nice used SA22 for the price of your CZ is no issue.
 
LolaPP, you've made the assertion that the Lakefield action is specifically modeled on the Anschutz 64, rather than simply being a similar design not unlike those of other rimfire manufacturers. Similarity in design doesn't necessarily mean that one is a purposeful or specific copy of the other. Is there any published information -- in print or online -- that corroborates the contention you make?

Krico and Voere have made rimfire actions that are very similar to the Anschutz 64 and, like the Lakefield, all lock with the bolt. This kind of rimfire action is very common. At the same time, it seems that the Anschutz 64 is a refinement of the widely used Flobert action, which also locks with the bolt and were in wide use in German rifles of various makes and in Anschutz production up to the 1980s.

Regarding the CIL and Savage relationships with Anschutz, they existed to provide Anschutz with wider North American distribution. North Americans interested in target rifles would certainly have been familiar with Anschutz by 1960 because of a gold in prone in the Rome Olympics in 1960. Canadian shooters could certainly buy Anschutz rifles without the CIL association. Many Anschutz models had no CIL equivalents such as the Anschutz 54 match rifles.

Americans were not unfamiliar with Anschutz sans Savage, as this early 1960s ad from an American publications illustrates (see below). Beneath is a 1960 ad in an American publication for sporter rifles, including Flobert and 64 action rifles. Later there was, of course, Savage-Anschutz advertising.



 
LolaPP, you've made the assertion that the Lakefield action is specifically modeled on the Anschutz 64, rather than simply being a similar design not unlike those of other rimfire manufacturers.

Yes, that's a perfect summation of exactly what I'm saying.

Similarity in design doesn't necessarily mean that one is a purposeful or specific copy of the other.

Absolutely. I'm sure we can both think of several similar designs in firearms development that were examples of convergent evolution. I'm not saying the designs are merely similar though, they're near identical from a design and manufacture perspective. Both based around a tube receiver, with a three piece bolt, with the same spring loaded striker that drives a seperate firing pin, mag well and trigger group as separate modular assemblies, etc etc. The exploded views look near identical. The biggest difference is that the Mk II design takes a lot of the precision machine work out of the bolt construction and arrives at the same end by simpler and less precise manufacturing methods. It's very smart.

Is there any published information -- in print or online -- that corroborates the contention you make?

No, absolutely not. Or more precisely, none that I know of. I don't know of anything published that directly covers the history of Lakefield Arms specifically, rather it's indirectly through their eventual relationship with Savage or via Cooey. That's not surprising, really, they were a small manufacturer of budget .22s for less than a quarter century before they were acquired by Savage.

It's unfortunate, given the story of the company's ongoing success. It's a unique story of a world class Canadian arms manufacturer arising from the loss of another industry, and not only surviving but prevailing to this day. That's pretty cool.

To answer your question as best I can, I don't recall where I first read or heard that. It's just something I always understood, and I thought was also widely understood. My father worked in the firearms business in that part of Canada during that time period, so it's possible it was from him.

Krico and Voere have made rimfire actions that are very similar to the Anschutz 64 and, like the Lakefield, all lock with the bolt.

Indeed, but that fact alone has no bearing on what I'm saying, unless the Kricos and Voeres predate the 64 action and it's actually the 64 that's modeled on them. I don't know if that's the case or not, or even when Voere and Krico started making rifles, except that they definitely aren't pre war manufacturers.

This kind of rimfire action is very common.

Is it? Apart from Savage and Anschutz plus Voere and Krico, that's all we've identified. I guess I would say it's very common because of Savage now, and the 64, but that's kind of it. Still relatively uncommon compared to the ubiquity of Brno type .22 actions or dare I say the Marlin 60/10-22 type actions.

At the same time, it seems that the Anschutz 64 is a refinement of the widely used Flobert action, which also locks with the bolt and were in wide use in German rifles of various makes and in Anschutz production up to the 1980s.

I think there's a definite design history there, from Flobert II to 64. My understanding of the 64 action though is that it wasn't so much refinement as a cheaper way to make accurate rifles than the 54 action. Much like the Rem 700 of the exact same time period. Also perhaps an example of convergent manufacturing methods for CF firearms.

Regarding the CIL and Savage relationships with Anschutz, they existed to provide Anschutz with wider North American distribution.

Yes, absolutely, and vice versa, that's exactly what I'm saying.

North Americans interested in target rifles

Which is to say a very small minority, even among rifle shooters,

would certainly have been familiar with Anschutz by 1960 because of a gold in prone in the Rome Olympics in 1960. Canadian shooters could certainly buy Anschutz rifles without the CIL association. Many Anschutz models had no CIL equivalents such as the Anschutz 54 match rifles.

Americans were not unfamiliar with Anschutz sans Savage, as this early 1960s ad from an American publications illustrates (see below)

Agree to disagree on what constitutes familiar... or at least "not unfamiliar." Not sure an ad here or there qualifies.

Beneath is a 1960 ad in an American publication for sporter rifles, including Flobert and 64 action rifles. Later there was, of course, Savage-Anschutz advertising.




Yeah, that's what I said. I'll quote myself for clarity...

It wasn't until well post WW2 that Anschutz got the reputation and fame it has today

The 1960s is well post WW2.
 
No, absolutely not. Or more precisely, none that I know of. I don't know of anything published that directly covers the history of Lakefield Arms specifically, rather it's indirectly through their eventual relationship with Savage or via Cooey. That's not surprising, really, they were a small manufacturer of budget .22s for less than a quarter century before they were acquired by Savage.

It's unfortunate, given the story of the company's ongoing success. It's a unique story of a world class Canadian arms manufacturer arising from the loss of another industry, and not only surviving but prevailing to this day. That's pretty cool.

To answer your question as best I can, I don't recall where I first read or heard that. It's just something I always understood, and I thought was also widely understood. My father worked in the firearms business in that part of Canada during that time period, so it's possible it was from him.

It's unfortunate that there's no published or online information available to support the claim made earlier in this thread that the Savage Mark II is based off the Anschutz 64, a contention that would make an interesting story. If the idea is correct, it remains a surprising absence of evidence.

To clarify a few other things, with regard to my observation that the CIL and Savage relationships with Anschutz "existed to provide Anschutz with wider North American distribution," you replied rather curiously.

Yes, absolutely, and vice versa, that's exactly what I'm saying.

Vice versa? To be clear, while Savage sold a lot of Anschutz rifles in the US, Anschutz sold a relatively small number of Savage rimfire rifles in Germany as part of the arrangement. The CIL relationship was always one-way in which CIL only imported Anschutz rifles. For very obvious reasons CIL never had a reciprocal arrangement with Anschutz.

With regard to the ads shown above, they were included as information to rectify the misleading suggestion that in North America without Savage and CIL "consumers here didn't know what an Anschutz was."

It should be noted that, while the average person was likely to be unaware of Anschutz, even today, outside of those who shoot rimfire with more than a casual interest, the vast majority of people remain unfamiliar with Anschutz, despite its now half-century reputation for excellence.

The ads show that independent of Savage or CIL, North Americans could know what an Anschutz was by 1960 in both target and sporting rifles. There are many more similar Anschutz-only ads from the sixties. North Americans knew also of the reputation Anschutz was establishing in competitive shooting, beginning with a gold in prone at the 1960 Olympics and more as the 1960s continued.

Keep in mind that advertising and sports news were what was available to disseminate such information at that time. The very presence in Canada of non-CIL Anschutz rifles from throughout the sixties is further proof of Canadian familiarity with them. North Americans didn't need Savage or CIL to be familiar with what an Anschutz was, although the active involvement of those North American businesses certainly made the Anschutz name more widespread.

The 1960s is well post WW2.

It is is -- but only from the perspective of a North American. Here people could pick up at the end of the war and continue largely unaffected by its ravages. In war torn Europe, especially in Germany and Eastern Europe, the story is understandably much different. That Anschutz was establishing itself and a reputation by 1960 is quite remarkable.
 
I have one of the Krico 22s and it is a nice quality gun

That's a great looking Krico rifle.

I've had three Krico rifles. Here are two of the sporters.




A close up of the action, albeit with the stock. The picture below was before the stock was refinished, as shown above.



Regarding the Voere referred to previously, here's the Model 2107 I had. After Mauser bought Voere, the model was rebranded as the Mauser 107.




An exploded parts diagram.

 
Wow huge feed back! guess what buy some cheap rifles try them biggest factor for rimfire accuracy is AMMO! I own 250.00 NS That will shoot .250@50 easily
It’s all bout the fit that’s the great part about 22s don’t start off high work your way up you’ll know when ya have it.
Buy one purchase 15-20 different types of ammo let the magic happen!
Happy shooting!
 
Wow huge feed back! guess what buy some cheap rifles try them biggest factor for rimfire accuracy is AMMO! I own 250.00 NS That will shoot .250@50 easily
It’s all bout the fit that’s the great part about 22s don’t start off high work your way up you’ll know when ya have it.
Buy one purchase 15-20 different types of ammo let the magic happen!
Happy shooting!

If you have a $250 rimfire thatll consistently shoot 1/4" EASY at 50 yards, you need to be buyin lottery tickets dude.
 
^^ I needed an $800 custom Lilja barrel complete with tuner and 2 years to shoot a qualifying 1/4" target. Dave 64 must be a better shooter than I :rolleyes:
 
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