What is a 'printed action' 'trued action'?

Jerry, very well said. I love reading your posts because they contain real, tried, factual information, that can be used by anyone.

Anyone decrying that a group should really be .1 or .2 or arguing statistical significance, yet giving no information on how to better achieve it, is just wasting my time.

This thread was about truing actions. You brought up a real world example that works. Maybe we don't know exactly how or why, but it does. I have taken your results to heart and hope to build up a "cost effective" rifle based on a Stevens/Savage action. Not everyone here is a "take no prisoners" competitor. Many, like myself, are just hobbyists, looking to see what is achievable within our budgets and time.

I will take real world results over a theoretical exercise any day. I like the way you do your homework and achieve your results, and best of all, is the way you communicate them. Your knowledge is priceless because you pass it on without hesitation.

Nothing speaks better than consistent results, no matter how unconventionally you got there.
 
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Marksmen said:
Statistically a 3 shot group is not a good sampling of a rifles accuracy. That why we shoot in competition 5 and 10 shot groups in benchrest and strings of 10-15 or more in TR or F class.
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You're right that 3 shot groups probably aren't earth shaking Marksmen, but there is a question of what a good test is. I think Leeper said it best when he pointed out the most legitimate test of a rifle is under the conditions that you are going to use it for (Excuse me if I'm quoting wrongly here Bill, but that was my understanding.). So, the best test for a rifle for F Class might be 15 or 20 round groups. You wouldn't want a rifle that quit at shot 11, for example. On the other hand, what about 30 shots (2 matches the last day at the Farquy) or 45 shots (3 matches the first day)? Personally I shoot 3 or 4 five shot groups in a row at any one time. But long before I do this, I screen loads by using 2 shot groups at 200 yards, much like Jerry does. (I used to use 3 shots at a 100, but he kind of talked me out of it and it costs less to use two, let's be honest.) I'm willing to make the initial assumption that any load that won't shoot two shots very close or touching at 200 yards isn't of interest. So far this has proven to be a helpful assumption with my target rifles (My hunting rifles are tested differently). I usually get 2 or 3 plateaus(nodes?) when I follow this approach. I do further testing and refining at one or all of these nodes to see if the result holds up. As an example, during initial testing with Varget powder my current 6 BR shot two shots very close together at 200 yards at 28.3 and 29.0 grains using the 90 grain Scenar bullet. The Scenar bullet didn't have a node above 29 grains. The loads 28.6, 29.3, 29.6 and 30 shot two shot groups that were more open with the worst being about 3/4 inch and the best about 3/8 inches. The groups stayed open beyond 30 grains. I found 3 nodes with the Berger 88g FB with equivalent accuracy and same number of shots at each load level. After shooting a 3 shot group at 28.3 and 29 grains I settled on 29.0 grains for the Scenar bullet. The 3 five shot groups at 300 yards that I just shot the other day with the Scenars using the 29 grain load measured 1 1/4 inches, just over 2 inches and just under 3 inches. I think I actually missed a small condition change on the last group. There was a fair amount of mirage and I noticed it had started to boil a bit after I let the shot off. Time to shoot the groups was quite long (1/2 hour). Five shot groups at the hottest load with the Berger FB's a week or so ago were a little better than those shot with the Scenars, but I want the boat tail for further out. I also think the Scenar will prove out to be as accurate as the FB's as the number of groups I shoot with them increases. Statistically I think it is fair to say that the rifle will likely shoot within a 3 inch circle for 15 shots providing I do my job.
Mainly I see the value of 2 or 3 shot groups as deriving from the early testing, though I do save them, and if I superimpose 5 or 10 two shot groups and the result if a very small group it means something to me. I don't see any virtue in burning alot of powder at loads that don't initially group 2 shots well, though I might check at some level if I think I made a bad shot. Furthermore it doesn't make much sense to me to draw a conclusion about what your rifle will do on the basis of one group of any size. I do think it is legitimate, and I hope we never lose this, to show a group of friends the latest highly improbable 3 shot group you shot. Truthfully, I still get excited when I see a three shot group that is really small. I try to tell myself it doesn't matter, but...my $0.02...Maybe it's time to let this one go though I would like to hear how other guys do their screening and testing.
 
Marksmen said:
Well I was just stating facts. The problem with CGN is that anyone can say anything. I and others have in western Canada have countless hours at the range and competed at the highest levels of the accuracy game. It is very hard sometimes to sit back and read plan out right BS. intentional or otherwise. The topics that are discussed on this forum are hardly new. Statistically a 3 shot group is not a good sampling of a rifles accuracy. That why we shoot in competition 5 and 10 shot groups in benchrest and strings of 10-15 or more in TR or F class.
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Well why not use that knowledge that you (and others) have learned to try and help educate those (like me) on CGN who are new to the shooting sports and would like to learn as much as possible, rather than just making snide comments about what other people are posting?. I have learned lots from reading Jerry's posts. He is very helpful and friendly to new shooters such as myself. CGN could use a few more like him.

Richard

Keep posting Jerry!!! :D
 
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You guy are absolutely recockulus. I hope to see you all at the matches this spring and summer. We will see who will takes home the most marbles. That is where rifles and shooting really matter.
 
What is so recockulous about asking to share something helpful? The only thing recockulous is your elitist attitude towards everyone here.

Great, come out and shoot with us, teach us a thing or two about shooting. Like I said earlier, I want to learn all I can from those willing to share. You sir, obviously, are not one of those people.
 
Marksmen said:
You guy are absolutely recockulus. I hope to see you all at the matches this spring and summer. We will see who will takes home the most marbles. That is where rifles and shooting really matter.
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WTF!!!!!

Is that helping the shooting/CGN community or someones ego?

I am sorry but that is exactly the additude that turns off so many new shooters from coming to a match. Hostile, Elitist, Arrogant....Not my way to spend a weekend.

Sure, we be all buddy buddy on the line. Maybe even share some thoughts on the weather and conditions but this statement is the real undercurrent of feelings - at least for you.

I do compete in F class, something you are welcomed to try. I try my best to help people on this boards to get excited and come out and compete. While I am there, I try my best to share what little I know.

Maybe someone beats me because of it. So what? It'll make me a better shooter if everyone is drilling out the X ring. If that happended, we will just make the X ring smaller.

Does it matter? You DAMN rights it matters. Shooting is falling from grace. Politics, economics, and age are slowly eroding this fine sport.

If we don't get off our duffs and help excite the next generation IN ANY DISCPLINE, we all loose.

So if you feel that my factual info and experiences are not perfect in your eyes, that is most certainly your right. Adding nothing positive to help, improve, or excite - just a big waste of bandwidth.

'Nuff said....got more planning to do on helping a whole bunch of guys reach out to a mile.

THIS IS MY CONTRIBUTION TO HELP MY SPORT GROW. WHAT'S YOURS?

Jerry
 
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Splatter said:
Marksman, so tell us which variables that you think are the most important to control. Or the tricks you use to read conditions.
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I apologize for sounding elitist. It is fantastic huge topic and if you want to learn more than the writing of "what I did at the range today" and "the way I see it" posts I have some very good books to start with.

RIFLE ACCURACY FACTS
Harold Vaughn

THE ACCURATE RIFLE
Warren Page

THE BENCHREST PRIMER
Edited by: Precision Shooting’s long time editor, Dave Brennan

The Precision Shooting Reloading Guide
By: Precision Shooting Columnists - Edited by: Dave Brennan

These are all great books and great mag.to get is Precision Shooting (Rick has contributed to this Mag. and been paid for.)

All I can say I competed in short range benchrest and to get a rifle to shoot in the teens(.19 or less Im talking aggs. and 5 shot groups) you have to have a descent rig(built by a benchrest riflesmith). A hummer barrel, hand made custom flat based bullets jammed into the lands. the rifle has to track the bags. The chamber has to be tight necked (.262 neck on a 6mm PPC) 10 rounds of extremely prepped brass(only Lapua). Very very hot rounds 70000psi + up to or more that 5 grns over book. You throw out the brass after 2 days and start with 10 more. But most important you have to shoot over flags 3 to 5 of them. Reload ammo after every group (at the range)so you can tune the powder charge as the day warms or cools. Hand dies wilsons with a bushing or shoulder bump on a harrels.

It alot of work to get a rifle to shoot to shoot to this extreme accuracy. So when I see a someone shooting in the ones. Well Im not calling them a liar but just not informed. If you take these rebarreled factory rifles with the magic load. Sat down at the bench and shot 10-3 shot groups how ever you want to shoot them. 90% would be 2 and 1's that mean two shots touching or better and one flyer or out from the group. 20% or less will be better which means the flyer randomly went into the 2 touching hole or better hole. This is a scientific statical fact. Because the random sampling is to small. That is why 5 shots or more are needed. 3 shot groups are for load development and to save bullets. If you think you have a good load with a 3 shot group. Then shoot 3 -5 shot groups to prove it and post them.
 
mysticplayer said:
WTF!!!!!



I do compete in F class, something you are welcomed to try. I try my best to help people on this boards to get excited and come out and compete. While I am there, I try my best to share what little I know.



Jerry
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Try!
Ive been shooting F class since 1996 I took the Grand Agg. At the BCRA Provincial championship in 2002 and 2004 5 days of shooting. I have been the rifle chair at the Mission and District R&G. I ran many many matches. I won BCRA sniper team match in 2000 and 2nd Grand agg. in 2001. I not shot much in the last 2 years because of work. But I am far from a newbe. I will shoot 3000 rnds this year. I make all my own rifles. Sorry if this makes me sound elitist.
 
Marksmen said:
You guy are absolutely recockulus. I hope to see you all at the matches this spring and summer. We will see who will takes home the most marbles. That is where rifles and shooting really matter.
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While I do know what you're getting at. I would consider tempering the overall arrogance. I would argue, your assertation that this is when the rifle and shooting really matters. At the more extreme point I would argue that having the crosshair on a person such as a military or police situation is when it really matters. Have your sights lined up on a person some time and tell me how much benchrest match shooting matters in comparison. I'm sure there are many on this site who have also been in that position. I would also argue that the hunter who has to make that 400 yard shot where shot placement is everything in order to make the humane kill considers that the time when the rifle and shooting really matters.

My point is very simple. Benchrest shooting is a great hobby, a wealth of knowledge and definately involves a high level of skill with matching equipment. However in the grand sceme of things this really isn't where the rifle and shooting matters. A trophy doesn't mean much relative to some of the other situations.

I've enjoyed reading this thread, and have always leaned towards more accurate rifles. That being said how about helping those of us that may be interested, instead of the above post.
 
Epoxy7 said:
While I do know what you're getting at. I would consider tempering the overall arrogance. I would argue, your assertation that this is when the rifle and shooting really matters. At the more extreme point I would argue that having the crosshair on a person such as a military or police situation is when it really matters. Have your sights lined up on a person some time and tell me how much benchrest match shooting matters in comparison. I'm sure there are many on this site who have also been in that position. I would also argue that the hunter who has to make that 400 yard shot where shot placement is everything in order to make the humane kill considers that the time when the rifle and shooting really matters.

My point is very simple. Benchrest shooting is a great hobby, a wealth of knowledge and definately involves a high level of skill with matching equipment. However in the grand sceme of things this really isn't where the rifle and shooting matters. A trophy doesn't mean much relative to some of the other situations.

I've enjoyed reading this thread, and have always leaned towards more accurate rifles. That being said how about helping those of us that may be interested, instead of the above post.
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Well the marbles are different things to different shooter. I hope I will never have to make the call like the Military or Police have to. I boils down to doing what you say and think you can do and what you do.
 
Splatter said:
For the BCRA, I'm assuming you used .308. Did you use the "built-in" mag or something a bit larger?
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That year my partner and I where shooting 260 rouge and well loaded everthing one shot at a time using a single shot follower made by holland. This year I will be shooting a 308 with the v-bull bottom metal.
 
CyaN1de said:
Great, come out and shoot with us, teach us a thing or two about shooting. Like I said earlier, I want to learn all I can from those willing to share.
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Really?? I doubt it. You really want to learn from the guy running around spewing great feats of shooting prowess claiming "minute of jug" accuracy at thousands of yards, who won't even put up what appears to be the necessary 20' or 30' target frame to try and catch some of his true group size at these ranges. This is like the silhouette shooter missing every shot on the ram, walking out, moving the ram to where the shots DID land, and claiming "IF the ram had been HERE, it WOULD have been a good group/shot."

I have yet to run across a competitive shooter that wasn't willing to share his/her knowledge base. The issue is will you accept it as a beginner/student, or instead go back to the internet shooter claiming rebarreled Savages "agging in the .1's and .2's??

I just don't understand the logic of asking experts for their knowledge, then rejecting their knowledge outright because it doesn't fit your particular paradigm. If the accuracy definition in what appears to be all long range disciplines includes something beyond a single 3 shot group definition, why are you rejecting it? It is what it is. If people want to rely on a statistically weaker definition of accuracy, that is certainly their prerogative, but why disrespect the experts' definition?

Now Marksman came of pretty strong and has apologized. But I sense and share his extreme frustration that the people that are willing to share their knowledge, and have a track record, have been successful and learned many accuracy secrets, and have competed nationally and internationally in several long range disciplines, are ultimately hounded off these boards time and again.

People ask for knowledge, but it seems they don't like the answer. Accuracy costs time and money, no matter what. There is no shortcuts (except to weaken the definition).

Yes this is my first post.
 
This is a great thread. Too bad many with negative comments won't contribute their knowledge to help the less experienced. I think it appeals to guys wanting to step up from hunting accuracy to competitive/target accuracy. I know that I found this thread after ordering a Stevens 200. The more I read the more I want my rifle to get here. I doubt I will ever get into the more elite rifle sports , however I hope to get the max out of my new .223. And with all due respect to many posters who may have knowledge, I appreciate Jerry's sharing of his knowledge. I also appreciate his tenacity in the face of his critics. Attitudes such as --come out and shoot against me and no I won't be there to help you seem pretty myopic. Carry on !
 
WR and Marksman and the those that think me a fool, let me make you a challenge,. If you are one of the 'experts' willing to share their knowledge freely and openly.

Let's see you spend the next 100 posts offering tangible tips and tricks to improving the mechanical performance and shooting skills of other posters on this forum.

No need to say a poster is full of it or their results fairytales. Just politely offer your thoughts on solutions to the posted questions. No need to debate what you know is wrong anyways.

My post count just topped 4000 but it has happened over a few years and yes, some has been spent debating the reality of my results - posted with pics in many instances if you take the time to search.

So there is a challenge, share your knowledge WITHOUT being asked. I believe that is the true sense of the term sharing/giving. Or am I wrong here too?

If you truly disagree with my results, buy a savage/Stevens or two (smoking deal on them at SIR - 2 Stevens = 1 Rem SPS). Do what I have suggested as I have posted, show us all your results. Try your honest best to make the rifle shoot.

Show us how it didn't.

Over the last 10 yrs, I have built alot of rifles all based on the many accepted norms from sources like those mentioned in an earlier post. I have worked on Rem's and have found exactly the issues and solutions so often described. My next project rifle was to be with a named custom action.

I was a believer.

Then I picked up a couple of Stevens rifles cause there was so much said against it. And they were offered at a price I couldn't resist. I worked on these, rebarreled them, got very surprising results.

That has lead on a journey of almost 4yrs and over a dozen Savage/Stevens rifles in various models both factory and rebarreled using both shoulder styles.

My results continue to surprise and amaze me.

More research shows there are dozens of very happy Savage owners saying the same thing. Living all over this continent with the entire range of experiences and desires. Some compete some don't.

Just look how well Team Savage did last year at the US F class Nationals. That's holes in paper at the top of their game. Yes, some of the best shooters in America were on that team but if their gear wasn't good.... They all shot factory direct rifles! (that's what they report - believe it or not).

Are we all delusional? Liars? Really lousy rulers/calipers?

That doesn't make statistical sense either. In all these results shot by so many people, the trend is the same. These rifles shoot really well and if a proper pipe is installed, match quality is achievable.

Is this the platform that can work in a particular SR game? Maybe, maybe not but that doesn't detract from its abilities in other forms of riflery sport.

The floating bolt head is the only real difference from all other solid bolt actions, factory or custom. This I feel IS the paradigm shift. It solves all the issues in the Rem that a custom action so wonderfully does too.

So lend a hand or build a rifle. I am no internet jockey as the many who have shot with me can say (I can start sending you all my busted primers too). I have results on paper but you don't believe those I have already posted so reposting would solve nothing.

I wish that time would allow me to attend more matches but those I have attend, I have done OK at.

If you think I am full of it, go ahead and show me your groups... from a Savage/Stevens.

Jerry
 
mysticplayer said:
If you are one of the 'experts' willing to share their knowledge freely and openly.
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Nope, definitely not, and never claimed to be. However, really hoping to learn from a few, before they get too frustrated and abandon the board. Why do you put experts in quotes? When people are at the top of the game, are they not experts? Or just what is your intent, to minimize or denigrate their competitive accomplishments? I hope not.

mysticplayer said:
More research shows there are dozens of very happy Savage owners saying the same thing. Living all over this continent with the entire range of experiences and desires. Some compete some don't.
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Are you being serious?? Dozens? Sounds like a lot.

mysticplayer said:
Just look how well Team Savage did last year at the US F class Nationals. That's holes in paper at the top of their game. Yes, some of the best shooters in America were on that team but if their gear wasn't good.... They all shot factory direct rifles! (that's what they report - believe it or not).

Are we all delusional? Liars? Really lousy rulers/calipers?.
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What is with the royal "we"? Are you now equating yourself with the team members of Team Savage? Maybe you are on that team?

Implicit in your example is the question, I wonder if they could have won with better equipment? Your example is actually meaningless, the fact is you don't know how much their years of experience and skill played into it, but somehow we are to make the same mental gymnastics that you do and conclude that equipment was the deciding factor, when in fact F Class is not always an equipment race, least of all the 2007 Nationals, when it was quite windy.

See link http://accurateshooter.wordpress.com/2007/09/18/f-class-nationals-report-from-brad-sauve/

And in answer to your question, I don't believe you ALL are delusional....

mysticplayer said:
That has lead on a journey of almost 4yrs and over a dozen Savage/Stevens rifles in various models both factory and rebarreled using both shoulder styles.

My results continue to surprise and amaze me.
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Everybody on this board has no doubt about that.

What amazes me, is the thousands of dollars you spend trying to "make" (your quote) a Savage shoot. That statement alone proves the point that beginners are not served well by the information you provide. I don't doubt that you are quite knowledgeable on Savage actions, but my goodness, why handicap a neophyte in such fashion? From your examples, it would be far more economical for a beginner to start with a "custom" (again your quote) action than a Savage.

Thanks for the offer, but I will not be taking up your challenge on trying to "make" a Savage shoot and post groups.
 
mysticplayer said:
I wish that time would allow me to attend more matches but those I have attend, I have done OK at.

Jerry
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Frosty Farky 300M Kamloops Shoot Last year:

1. Bill Leeper 750-49
2. Jerry Teo 749-51
3. Tom Fripp 749-47
4+. The rest of us :)

Yup, I would say "Pretty Good" covers it :D

I am truly glad that the people I now shoot with were welcoming, warm and willing to help a newb when I first came out to "try" 300m ISSF with my pencil barreled Tikka T3 Lite .223 (what an eye opener that was) If people had been cold, non-welcoming, elitist and not willing to help a newbie out, I probably would not have ventured back a second time and would not have gotten "hooked" on this wonderful sport.
 
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westernronin said:
What amazes me, is the thousands of dollars you spend trying to "make" (your quote) a Savage shoot. That statement alone proves the point that beginners are not served well by the information you provide. I don't doubt that you are quite knowledgeable on Savage actions, but my goodness, why handicap a neophyte in such fashion? From your examples, it would be far more economical for a beginner to start with a "custom" (again your quote) action than a Savage.

Thanks for the offer, but I will not be taking up your challenge on trying to "make" a Savage shoot and post groups.
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WR, did you actually read how much it actually cost Jerry to make his Savage shoot? How much do you think people spend getting other rifles to "shoot" or how much on a custom build?

I would like you to show me how to get a better preforming rifle for around $1k to $1.5k, including: action, trigger, barrel, stock.

WR please contribute to this thread by telling me what I could do better than starting off with a Stevens/Savage action, and still stay within my budget of approx $1,500.
 
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