Whats with all the cool new 'Black Rifles' being $2000 +
- Thread starter Zerex
- Start date
Ar180shooter
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Ottawa, ON
ITAR does have a good deal to do with it. It makes it so that much more paperwork is involved. Also as mentioned, the distribution networks where the export paperwork is already in place (as in the Remington example) definitely cuts down on costs.
blaxsun
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
What about the ACR then? Should it not be about a $1000 less than it is?
(yes, my statement was a set-up. Waiting for someone to say Remingtons are cheaper because of their distribution network)
Saying it's from Remington Military won;t cut it.
I'm not saying Remingtons are cheaper because of their distribution network; I'm saying that there's a Canadian distributor for Remington who imports a lot of volume - and that's going to bring the unit cost down considerably. It's even possible some of the R's are sold at less margin. Maybe they're just junk and dealers are trying to get rid of them.
You can't get an ACR at the original pre-order price of $3,500 - let alone the adjusted price of $3,000 which they sold for - so what makes you think they should be retailing for $2,000 in Canada when the nearest over-hyped/loctite-infused "AR wannabes" are $500 more? I could also point out that Bushmaster moved their manufacturing facilities for the ACR, that full production hasn't yet been implemented and that you'd hard-pressed to find an ACR anywhere right now, but I digress...
You've got a choice of exactly four (4) non-restricted (non-bullpup) 5.56mm/.223 black rifles in Canada that are roughly in the same class: SL8-4, Swiss Arms Classic, RobArms XCR or the Bushmaster ACR. It's not the most expensive - and it's not the cheapest, either; it's comparable to the SL8 in many respects.
Maybe the ACR is more because it's simply worth more. Is a G36 worth $8000? Probably not. But in the eyes of a collector, perhaps. And since you can't find an ACR - this whole thing is really moot.
blaxsun
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
^^ Yep.
Could some one itemize exactly what "so much paperwork" entails ?
I ask as I have imported (using an exporter in the States) a fair number of firearms for personal use and have not encountered an overwhelming amount of paperwork that would bog me down for days and cause me to rethink my decision to import due to cost of time expended.
In fact, the last time around (early this month), it took exactly 5 mins to provide my information, about 45 mins while I hung around the exporter's office while he filled and submitted the necessary forms, and two weeks later I was given an approval to export my Beretta. I can't imagine commercial approvals being that much more complicated after all they are governed by the same laws! They just may take a bit longer due to volume.
Note that I haven't transported firearms across the border by a shipper (I usually pick them up myself at the border when approved) so not sure how much of an effort that would entail. Should be straightforward after the first couple of runs once the kinks are worked out.
It's quite simple really - fill form(s) -> submit form(s) and then wait for decision (usually an approved if the firearm falls in line with export regulations).
In short, I am almost willing to believe that we get charged with these inflated prices because the dealers can. Being a free market, retailers are allowed to charge whatever price they feel is 'competitive' for their product - but I hope they relaize that a smart shopper may just buy elsewhere! Personally, I would love to support Canadian retailers (and often do if the markup isn't too bad - even if I am out an extra few hundred) but recently some prices have been getting a touch delusional so they lose my (and most of my friends) business. Sad really how sometimes free market can work against you
Edit: Forgot to mention that there are certain firearms that have to be modified from their original configuration (barrel and receiver markings, non-extendible stocks etc) that entails additional work and expense. In such a scenario, I could see the merit in a minor cost escalation.
I ask as I have imported (using an exporter in the States) a fair number of firearms for personal use and have not encountered an overwhelming amount of paperwork that would bog me down for days and cause me to rethink my decision to import due to cost of time expended.
In fact, the last time around (early this month), it took exactly 5 mins to provide my information, about 45 mins while I hung around the exporter's office while he filled and submitted the necessary forms, and two weeks later I was given an approval to export my Beretta. I can't imagine commercial approvals being that much more complicated after all they are governed by the same laws! They just may take a bit longer due to volume.
Note that I haven't transported firearms across the border by a shipper (I usually pick them up myself at the border when approved) so not sure how much of an effort that would entail. Should be straightforward after the first couple of runs once the kinks are worked out.
It's quite simple really - fill form(s) -> submit form(s) and then wait for decision (usually an approved if the firearm falls in line with export regulations).
In short, I am almost willing to believe that we get charged with these inflated prices because the dealers can. Being a free market, retailers are allowed to charge whatever price they feel is 'competitive' for their product - but I hope they relaize that a smart shopper may just buy elsewhere!
Personally, I would love to support Canadian retailers (and often do if the markup isn't too bad - even if I am out an extra few hundred) but recently some prices have been getting a touch delusional so they lose my (and most of my friends) business. Sad really how sometimes free market can work against you Edit: Forgot to mention that there are certain firearms that have to be modified from their original configuration (barrel and receiver markings, non-extendible stocks etc) that entails additional work and expense. In such a scenario, I could see the merit in a minor cost escalation.
I'm late to the show but I wanted comment on the comparison of the low cost of AR15 forgings and the high cost of the finished product.
Raw materials cost is a very, very minor factor in the cost of the end product. Fixtures, tooling, machines, power, paying the secretary, etc. are usually all larger factors in the cost of a product than the raw material*.
*Excluding highly expensive exotics, titanium for example.
Raw materials cost is a very, very minor factor in the cost of the end product. Fixtures, tooling, machines, power, paying the secretary, etc. are usually all larger factors in the cost of a product than the raw material*.
*Excluding highly expensive exotics, titanium for example.
Last edited:
Ar180shooter
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Ottawa, ON
Could some one itemize exactly what "so much paperwork" entails ?
I ask as I have imported (using an exporter in the States) a fair number of firearms for personal use and have not encountered an overwhelming amount of paperwork that would bog me down for days and cause me to rethink my decision to import due to cost of time expended.
In fact, the last time around (early this month), it took exactly 5 mins to provide my information, about 45 mins while I hung around the exporter's office while he filled and submitted the necessary forms, and two weeks later I was given an approval to export my Beretta. I can't imagine commercial approvals being that much more complicated after all they are governed by the same laws! They just may take a bit longer due to volume.
Note that I haven't transported firearms across the border by a shipper (I usually pick them up myself at the border when approved) so not sure how much of an effort that would entail. Should be straightforward after the first couple of runs once the kinks are worked out.
It's quite simple really - fill form(s) -> submit form(s) and then wait for decision (usually an approved if the firearm falls in line with export regulations).
In short, I am almost willing to believe that we get charged with these inflated prices because the dealers can. Being a free market, retailers are allowed to charge whatever price they feel is 'competitive' for their product - but I hope they relaize that a smart shopper may just buy elsewhere!
Edit: Forgot to mention that there are certain firearms that have to be modified from their original configuration (barrel and receiver markings, non-extendible stocks etc) that entails additional work and expense. In such a scenario, I could see the merit in a minor cost escalation.
The approval for sporting rifles and shotguns is much easier to obtain than that of "black" rifles. In many cases, rifles like AR's, unmodified from the factory, do not meet the export criteria. Just look at how long it took a Canadian importer to be able to bring the first Kel Tec rifles into Canada on a commercial basis.
Also keep in mind that it may only take you about an hour total to export one gun for personal use, it takes a lot more time to bring in a batch of rifles commercially. Also, the importer has to invest a significant amount of time and money to bring a large shipment north, and when it is tied up in limbo while the paperwork is being completed, they need to recoup their investment when it comes time to sell.
As mentioned, when there is a large distributor network set up, (i.e. with Remington or Winchester) the retail is pretty close to what it is in the U.S. You guys have to keep in mind that the black rifle market here in Canada is miniscule in comparison to the U.S. Importers aren't going to be importing thousands of a certain rifle to lower the price by a few hundred dollars. They would be way over stocked, and have too much money tied up in to a niche market.
It sucks, but that's the way it is.
