Who makes the best .45

[Claven2]

JAneau: I should have also mentioned that Wilson, prior to the Norinco ban in the US lsited the Norinco as was of the guns the company would use as a base gun for customizing. I doubt Bill Wilson would have chosen the Norinco if it was as out of spec as you suggest.

This is false.
Wilson was called for other business about two months ago and they denied this. They never offered a Norinco based gun, used components or planned to do so.

This is a gosip among Norinco owners but 100 % not true.

Hmm, I guess my old Guns and Ammo Wilson ads are misprints :roll:

Besides he didn;t say Wilson sold Norinco - they did not. But they DID agree to build guns on customer supplied Norincos. Something they would NOT do on alot of other MFGR's guns.

 

[Claven2]

I particularly enjoy Janeau's enlightened posts about the Norinco "Viking" clone. Aparently it's a best seller for Marstar, though I can;t seem to find it on their website... :roll:

:twisted:

 

[1851 Navy]

Has anybody handled the new High Standard 1911's yet? I did some searching on the various 1911 forums, but found few replies that indicated any firsthand experience with them. They do make a nice looking longslide, and it seems to be competitively priced with the equivalent Springfield 6 incher.

 

[Janeau]

We are way off topic... who make the best .45 ?? We can rule out Norinco....

Claven2... you have to admit that Marstar's K100 and the Viking has similarities in look ! Have you seen the Norinco copy ( scaled down version ) of the Russian Viking...this should close this one up I guess !!

Ps : By the way .. I read all your posts too...and you stated in your rebuild of your Norinco that you were at $800 so far ..and you were waiting for some parts from Brownells....my guess is that you are close to a $1000 by now..confirm ?? :twisted:

 

[Claven2]

High Standard has been at times known to produce less than ideal product, not saying their 1911 is bad because I've never had one, but I frankly don't trust the brand in general.

Perhaps I am wrong to feel this way, but perception is EVERYTHING in the gun biz

 

[Claven2]

We are way off topic... who make the best .45 ?? We can rule out Norinco....

Claven2... you have to admit that Marstar's K100 and the Viking has similarities in look ! Have you seen the Norinco copy ( scaled down version ) of the Russian Viking...this should close this one up I guess !!

Ps : By the way .. I read all your posts too...and you stated in your rebuild of your Norinco that you were at $800 so far ..and you were waiting for some parts from Brownells....my guess is that you are close to a $1000 by now..confirm ?? :twisted:

Firstly, no-one said Norinco made the best .45, though I would argue they make the "best inexpensive .45".

The K100 is not a Norinco despite any cosmetic similarities to the Viking. From an engineering standpoint they don't even share the same basic locking system so they are far from clones of each other.

Norinco also makes a pistol that somewhat resembles the Viking in cosmetics, it's a copy of the new Chinese service pistol. By the way, the Norinco is actually an older design than the Viking and uses a traditional browning-style lock. Passing cosmetic coincidences are where ANY similarities end.

As for my Norinco, you're a bit off. I've probably got more like $1500 into my Norinco, not $1000. I didn;t build that gun to show it was economical. I built it because I wanted a specific specification that I couldn;t find in any off the shelf gun available in Canada. I reasoned that if I was going to change everything anyhow, I'd best start with the least expensive forged frame and slide I could locate and go from there. I don't regret that at all and I have exactly what I wanted.

I could have bought a very nice Kimber for the same money, but then I would have put another $500 into it to get the gun I wanted.

Anyone who wants to tweak their Norinco should note though that $500 of what I spent was completely on cosmetics such as extra fancy grips, hand polishing of the frame and slide, etc. None of that money contributed to functionality. Just as accurate and reliable a gun could have been made for $800-1000 easily, it just wouldn't be as pretty.

Also worthy of note is that if you can;t afford a $1500 investment right away, you can buy the gun and keep shooting it as you replace parts here and there when you can afford it until you get where you want to go.

If you can't buy a $1500 Kimber or STI right away, all the shooting you will do is shooting off on CGN with your mouth while you put pennies away for however long...

PS: Even if you dislike Norinco Janeau, you have to admit mine looks GOOD. It shoots good too, by the way.

 

[1851 Navy]

High Standard has been at times known to produce less than ideal product, not saying their 1911 is bad because I've never had one, but I frankly don't trust the brand in general.

From what I've read, High Standard is "High Standard" in name only, much like Springfield Armory. Now, a vintage "real" High Standard is a thing of beauty, like my father's Field King. But the modern High Standard, and whomever is using the name...? Nobody seems to know, and I'm not adventeurous enough to find out for myself. :?

 

[Claven2]

High Standard has been at times known to produce less than ideal product, not saying their 1911 is bad because I've never had one, but I frankly don't trust the brand in general.

From what I've read, High Standard is "High Standard" in name only, much like Springfield Armory. Now, a vintage "real" High Standard is a thing of beauty, like my father's Field King. But the modern High Standard, and whomever is using the name...? Nobody seems to know, and I'm not adventeurous enough to find out for myself. :?

Well put.

 

[blackball]

go with what you can afford . as long as you have fun using it , and you can hit the target what`s the differnce . Joe 8)

 

[Janeau]

"Hmm, I guess my old Guns and Ammo Wilson ads are misprints :roll:"

Claven2,

Scan and post the add you say you have seen.... Wilson say no !! I guess they should know what they are doing or have done, don't you think ???

:?

PS : I did make a mistake about the Viking/K100 and corrected it in the next ten minutes after writing it. Your Wilson/Norinco story is bogus.You have been kidding me with this for the..last two months on every single forum. Now my time to have fun and settle the score :twisted:

 

[Janeau]

Norinco also has its own sub-forum on m1911.org, and I don't see any complaints that even approach Janeau's. Well, with one exception anyway, and that guy believed that the best 1911 was a Colt simply because....wait for it....it was a "Colt." :roll: As for the rest of Janeau's claims about the Norc, I'll let the experts and gunsmiths refute them, but he's already been proven wrong several times about the supposed "USGI" throat on the barrel.

Were did you took I was wrong on the USGI troat of the barrel....you just imagine things my friend. Trying to discredit others because you do not like the reality of the Norinco problems and quality control is just low.

Just my experience...read the forums ..right here on CGN. 12 different guns owned by differents owners at one shooting Club is a good basis to make my opinion..better anyway than one owner and one gun.

 

[1851 Navy]

Scan and post the add you say you have seen.... Wilson say no !! I guess they should know what they are doing or have done, don't you think ???

Why do that? It's right on their bloody web site:

http://www.wilsoncombat.com/faq_handgun.htm

What pistols do you work on?
We will work on Springfield Armory, Colt, Norinco, Wilson Combat, Kimber, Strayer Tripp, and Strayer Voight pistols.

 

[Claven2]

Scan and post the add you say you have seen.... Wilson say no !! I guess they should know what they are doing or have done, don't you think ???

Why do that? It's right on their bloody web site:

http://www.wilsoncombat.com/faq_handgun.htm

What pistols do you work on?
We will work on Springfield Armory, Colt, Norinco, Wilson Combat, Kimber, Strayer Tripp, and Strayer Voight pistols.

I've pot the old ads in storage at the cottage, next time I'm there I'll dig one out and try to find a scanner, but in the meantime, the nearly exact text is reproduced on their website as stated here:

What pistols do you work on?
We will work on Springfield Armory, Colt, Norinco, Wilson Combat, Kimber, Strayer Tripp, and Strayer Voight pistols.

Main difference is back in the early 90's, I don't reemmber SA,Inc. guns and the Strayer guns being on the list yet. I'll have to check.

I think it's pretty clear, not only by Norinco's inclusion here, but also by the exclusion of the other 390+ 1911 manufacturers, including real USGI ones, Les Baer, Caspian, etc. what Bill Wilson thinks of the Norinco as a platform for cutstom work... :roll:

Funny... I don't see STI on the list anywhere.... :twisted:

 

[1851 Navy]

Were did you took I was wrong on the USGI troat of the barrel....you just imagine things my friend. Trying to discredit others because you do not like the reality of the Norinco problems and quality control is just low.

Umm...I'm not quite sure what you're trying to say here, but you have in the past claimed that the Norinco 1911 comes with a "USGI" throat whcih will only feed hardball etc etc, correct? This is false, as my bone-stock Norc indeed came with a factory throated barrel. Gunnar backs this up just a few forums up from here in the Gunsmithing forum, in the "Ramped barrel" thread. This may not have been the case with the earlier 1911's (which I'm sure in your vast 30 years worth of experience you've handled extensively) but the current ones are indeed like this. As for QC, well I didn't really mention that at all in my post so I'm not sure where you're getting that from. And even if they DID make a GI style barrel, would that really be a QC issue?

 

[Claven2]

Just my experience...read the forums ..right here on CGN. 12 different guns owned by differents owners at one shooting Club is a good basis to make my opinion..better anyway than one owner and one gun.

1) Do any of those 12 owners post here? If so, how about they man up and validate your claims of their unhappiness in the Norincos they purchased.

2) 12 guys at your club that you talk to regularly all bought Norincos and all hate them totally? Wow... I'm not sure I know 12 guys at my club by their real first names... :lol:

3) I've read the CGN threads on Norincos and aside from a very few naysayers, most owners seem generally happy with the value they got for their meagre $325...

4) If you expect ANY sub-$500 gun to impress you more than your $2000+ STI with custom work on the trigger, then you are of course setting yourself up to be disappointed. I don't expect a Mossberg ATR to outshoot a $1500 Sako and I don;t expect Norinco to beat a Kimber TLEII out of the box either, but that doesn;t make the pistol a waste of money either.

 

[Canuck44]

1851 NavyWhy do that? It's right on their bloody web site:


Sure you had to go ahead and steal my coup de gras. LOL. For an entry level 1911 the Norinco has to be considered the most economical handgun out there. As somebody said upgrade it at your leisure.

The one thing I will say about my stock Norinco A1 is that it is 100% reliable with all ammo I have wrung through it. Furthermore at the ranges I am likely to encounter a bear the gun is extremely accurate. For me that is all that matters.

Janeau you are quite the shooter I will give you that. No question you will outshoot me at 50 yards using your paper targets. Just our needs are different. I need a gun that will be 100% reliable at 7 - 10 yards. My Norinco does that and I don't have a ton of money invested in it if I take a spill in the river or it gets rained on for four hours. Yes I carry while in the bush up here, and Allan Rock can kiss my a$$.

Stay Safe

 

[1851 Navy]

Sure you had to go ahead and steal my coup de gras. LOL.

Heh, sorry. I was bored at lunch and I couldn't resist. I'll let you have the next one, I promise. :wink:

 

[Janeau]

Claven2,

The Norinco you build is a nice gun. That I agree with you !!

I read the also all CGN posts, and more than a few owners have problems. What you ask is that I bring forward every single guy who had problem at my club ?? Like you I have other thing to do. I already do much by repairing and fixing the damm things, instruct and act as safety officer. I have given and still give more than my share of free time for the sports.

I do not say they all hate them, I say they all needed to be fixed and they were dispointed at least. I suggested to two of them to send the gun back to Marstar for warranty. A guy who had a few 1911 under is belt can work out most bugs but this is not what most newbie who see it as an entry level gun can do. With money and time they can be improved or repaired. What you expect at least, is a gun that feed, eject and give you an acceptable level of accuracy with standard ammo. Some Norinco do, many do not.

To save a lot of trouble, IF someone need a Norinco , I would strongly recommend that it will be puchased from a company like Armco who inspect them and correct any deficiency before it is shipped. Other ways : to buy it from a local dealer who can fix it or buy a used example that you can try before paying for it. Do I hate Norinco, no, I do not own one and never will. But it pissed me off when I see a new shooter comming to the shooting range for the first time after months of waiting for the paperwork , to have jams and be told to ship the gun back for repairs and warranty. It is also not fun to have to learn shooting with a creepy 8 pounds trigger.

For a guy who know this before hand and decide that at $300 he can deal with it, and
do not mind to take the time to modify and pay for it..this is his free choice..an informed choice. For this guy..this is a good buy and I guess Claven2 is in this category.

I went to college and eated kraft dinner.
I owned all kind of 1911 (and other models) from the cheap and odd brand to the best and had custom IPSC gun made for me whrn I could afford it. I do own two STI Edge, a Colt Commander and a Wilson 1911 and some other bulleye guns. Since this forum is about the best .45 ACP for the money, I stand behind any S&W 1911, Kimber, Colt, STI, and a Springfield Armory has a good deal in the range of $800- $1400. It will work right out of the box, have features for most sports in town, and will probably never need to change parts and see a gunsmith in it's normal life. Those manufacturers all stand behind their product, some for more than a year, some for a lifetime.

You do not need to spend $2300 to $5000 to have a great 1911. Just to buy the right one in the right quality range with the features you want, right off the bat.
:|

4) Claven2 : you will find out later on, if you ever sell it, what kind of lost you will get on a part gun build on a Norinco frame and slide. Even IPSC custom guns do not sell that easy and most go for a fraction of the building price. The guns who hold better financially in the long run, are factory unmodified guns.

1911.org is a nice site, but read it for a while and you will find prize for all brands...all the time. They are 1911 lovers - period. CGN offert the best coverage in all field and leave nothing to the 1911.org site.

 

[Claven2]

Yes, I know building any 1911 is a money losing proposition. Frankly though, I hope to wear this one out and mail the splintered shards of remaining metal to the CFO in the event it one day maybe dies. So resale is realy not an issue for me at all.

That being said, a factory gun will depreciate alot too - especially if you use it for IPSC or otherwise put alot of miles on it.

 

[Janeau]

1851 Navy Yes I carry while in the bush up here, and Allan Rock can kiss my a$$.

Stay Safe

I love that !!
Shooting a bear at 7-10 yards with a .45.. :shock: You have no fear my friend..that for sure