Who makes the best .45
- Thread starter sandman
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Janeau: Well there is one thing we are in agreement on and that is it really doesn't matter whether frames or parts for that matter are cast or forged or MIM either.
No doubt Baer and other limited production guns are fine examples of the 1911 design. They fill a niche market.
PRoduction guns like Para, Kimber,Springfield and to a lessor extent Colt fill a larger market and provide a larger group of shooters a quality product at a price they can afford. Springfield and Kimber nibble at the limited production market with their high end guns but live on the entry level to mid market. For most of us the production guns meet our needs. All are capable of filling the sports shooters needs (IDPA/IPSC), and certainly fill the police/para military market. In the US these companies also cater to the personal protection market which is comparatively large.
So where does Norinco fit in all of this. Well for a number of reasons, the guns are sold in Canada at a price point domestic producers can't attempt to match. For the entry level shooter or for those of us who can't equate polished surfaces with $2,000 price premiums they fill represent good value. For $400 Dlask replaced sights, hammer, Sear and trigger, tightened frame to slide fit and left me with a pistol that I have $800 tied up. The gun is capable, I'm not, of 1" groups at 25 yds.
Now is the inside of the frame polished? - Nope! Does the interior of the slide have machine marks on it? Yup! Does any of that effect accuracy? Nope! I am willing to bet that my Norinco as it came back from Dlask in the hands of a shooter such as you will group and shoot as accurately as your Baer.
So for you, you see value in spending $2,000 + on your shooter. Meets all your needs. Great! For me, the $1,200 premium is just not worth it. I am not capable of wringing out the potential improvment in accuracy and performance that you seem to think there is in the Baer.
Lastly you speak of durability. For that I have to defer to my American friends who have reported on other forums of of +20,000 rounds through their Norincos with nary a problem.
Stay Safe
No doubt Baer and other limited production guns are fine examples of the 1911 design. They fill a niche market.
PRoduction guns like Para, Kimber,Springfield and to a lessor extent Colt fill a larger market and provide a larger group of shooters a quality product at a price they can afford. Springfield and Kimber nibble at the limited production market with their high end guns but live on the entry level to mid market. For most of us the production guns meet our needs. All are capable of filling the sports shooters needs (IDPA/IPSC), and certainly fill the police/para military market. In the US these companies also cater to the personal protection market which is comparatively large.
So where does Norinco fit in all of this. Well for a number of reasons, the guns are sold in Canada at a price point domestic producers can't attempt to match. For the entry level shooter or for those of us who can't equate polished surfaces with $2,000 price premiums they fill represent good value. For $400 Dlask replaced sights, hammer, Sear and trigger, tightened frame to slide fit and left me with a pistol that I have $800 tied up. The gun is capable, I'm not, of 1" groups at 25 yds.
Now is the inside of the frame polished? - Nope! Does the interior of the slide have machine marks on it? Yup! Does any of that effect accuracy? Nope! I am willing to bet that my Norinco as it came back from Dlask in the hands of a shooter such as you will group and shoot as accurately as your Baer.
So for you, you see value in spending $2,000 + on your shooter. Meets all your needs. Great! For me, the $1,200 premium is just not worth it. I am not capable of wringing out the potential improvment in accuracy and performance that you seem to think there is in the Baer.
Lastly you speak of durability. For that I have to defer to my American friends who have reported on other forums of of +20,000 rounds through their Norincos with nary a problem.
Stay Safe
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They like to ride around in the back of trucks, and leak oil? :shock:
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....but you can get parts for a 1978 shovelhead, can you get parts for a 1998 Honda? :wink:
Cannuck44,
I am sure there is some Norinco that work great out of the box. But there is far too many that are not. Out of 13 so far, I tried, only the Sig P226 copycat was working right.
For guy who can fix them it's maybe not a problem ( except of cash expenditure and time) but this is not the case with newbies. Norinco are of very variable in quality and this is why some like them and some hate them depending if you inherited a good one or a bad one. The problems range from easy to correct - bad mags to outright poorly fitted barrel that was not lining up with the frame channel.
Spending money on a Norinco remain a bad investment. As for durability, there is not too many Nork in the USA. And the NORK that are there are from the Clinton pre-ban area.
It is not unusual for a Colt, Springfield, a Caspian and a STI to wear out a barrel at around 50- 60 K and last over 100K before needing further work.(other than maintenance)
My 9X21 custom gun fired 60K before I had it refurbish. A Caspian 9X25 barrel lasted 30K before the pounding got to wear out the exterior of the barrel. A new barrel and refit of frame and slide got it back to like new functionning. The 1911 is the gun used in IPSC since the beginning and the American guns have made their mark on durability with more rounds than any imported Nork has seen.
I will not bet that a Norinco will hold togheter as well as any American 1911. I was pointed out that the NORK is departing quite a bit from the Mill Spec from John Browning starting from the metal used to tolerances. Too hard a slide is looking for breakage as one member on CGN found out when he tried to squeese the slide for a better frame/slide fit. The rail broke right off on one side.
As for your gun shooting in 1 inches at 25 yards, you can have a good barrel but I doupt very much a standard NORK barrel has the spec for it. The gun is all loose..and there is no reason to beleive the barrel is match quality. I am not saying it is not possible - exception rules - but very douptfull.
You can't turn a pig ear sow in silk ? ( I am not sure this is the right saying but I had to give it a try !) :mrgreen:
As for the Harley Jokers, you should check the value of an old Panhead today and the value of a North American 1911 of WWI. Even in 90 years from now , a NORK will have the same value as other imported bike - scrap metal value.. :twisted:
I am sure there is some Norinco that work great out of the box. But there is far too many that are not. Out of 13 so far, I tried, only the Sig P226 copycat was working right.
For guy who can fix them it's maybe not a problem ( except of cash expenditure and time) but this is not the case with newbies. Norinco are of very variable in quality and this is why some like them and some hate them depending if you inherited a good one or a bad one. The problems range from easy to correct - bad mags to outright poorly fitted barrel that was not lining up with the frame channel.
Spending money on a Norinco remain a bad investment. As for durability, there is not too many Nork in the USA. And the NORK that are there are from the Clinton pre-ban area.
It is not unusual for a Colt, Springfield, a Caspian and a STI to wear out a barrel at around 50- 60 K and last over 100K before needing further work.(other than maintenance)
My 9X21 custom gun fired 60K before I had it refurbish. A Caspian 9X25 barrel lasted 30K before the pounding got to wear out the exterior of the barrel. A new barrel and refit of frame and slide got it back to like new functionning. The 1911 is the gun used in IPSC since the beginning and the American guns have made their mark on durability with more rounds than any imported Nork has seen.
I will not bet that a Norinco will hold togheter as well as any American 1911. I was pointed out that the NORK is departing quite a bit from the Mill Spec from John Browning starting from the metal used to tolerances. Too hard a slide is looking for breakage as one member on CGN found out when he tried to squeese the slide for a better frame/slide fit. The rail broke right off on one side.
As for your gun shooting in 1 inches at 25 yards, you can have a good barrel but I doupt very much a standard NORK barrel has the spec for it. The gun is all loose..and there is no reason to beleive the barrel is match quality. I am not saying it is not possible - exception rules - but very douptfull.
You can't turn a pig ear sow in silk ? ( I am not sure this is the right saying but I had to give it a try !) :mrgreen:
As for the Harley Jokers, you should check the value of an old Panhead today and the value of a North American 1911 of WWI. Even in 90 years from now , a NORK will have the same value as other imported bike - scrap metal value.. :twisted:
Janeau: I don't know what your source is but I can tell you for a fact the Norinco A1 and Commander version do not vary from the original 1911 specs that I can assure you. As far as being loose is concerned I have not seen it in any of my four and I have not heard of any reports of others either. Go to: http://www.1911forum.com/forums/ and do a search under "Other 1911". You can also check out http://forum.m1911.org/ as well.
While you are there check:
http://www.1911forum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=46759
or
http://www.1911forum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=123659
Mean while my Norks just keep going bang bang in the general direction I am aiming. :wink:
While you are there check:
http://www.1911forum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=46759
or
http://www.1911forum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=123659
Mean while my Norks just keep going bang bang in the general direction I am aiming. :wink:
JAneau: I should have also mentioned that Wilson, prior to the Norinco ban in the US lsited the Norinco as was of the guns the company would use as a base gun for customizing. I doubt Bill Wilson would have chosen the Norinco if it was as out of spec as you suggest.
I would suspect this statement is pure BS. Marstar would not be in business if they offerred Norinco products with a better warranty than any competition, but couldn't keep up with quality of the competition.
Sounds like a scared North American manu...
Thamok - can you see Springfield offering a mil-spec gun in the States if Norincos were coming in at about $225. US a copy. Not likely.
I don't know where Janeau gets his information from. Would be interested to hear from a few of the 'smiths who frequent this forum. Gunnar you out there?
I don't know where Janeau gets his information from. Would be interested to hear from a few of the 'smiths who frequent this forum. Gunnar you out there?
No offense, but your reasoning doesn't make any sense. Norincos are high quality just because Marstar offers a great warranty? By the same logic, Kia must be one of the most reliable cars out there, as they offer the best warranty in the industry. One has to wonder how Toyota and Honda stay in business charging their customers 1.5 times what Kia does.Thamok said:
Thamok,
Before saying anything and trowing the bull#### world all over, you should check the forums on CGN, just for a start.. As for MY experience at our club, there is no bull#### there, this is hand on experience. Since I have been at it for more than 30 years, I do have experience that you do not have. Learn form the others, life is too short to do all the mistakes by yourself.
Norinco guns are cheap gun. Period. The competition is way better.. just take a Springfield in GI guise and you are way ahead in quality.
As for warranty, all manufacturer stand behind their products and many for more than one year.
Marstar, just ask them about the warranty claims and returns on Norinco 1911..
Gunnar work them over and inspect them before selling them..smart business move.
Before saying anything and trowing the bull#### world all over, you should check the forums on CGN, just for a start.. As for MY experience at our club, there is no bull#### there, this is hand on experience. Since I have been at it for more than 30 years, I do have experience that you do not have. Learn form the others, life is too short to do all the mistakes by yourself.
Norinco guns are cheap gun. Period. The competition is way better.. just take a Springfield in GI guise and you are way ahead in quality.
As for warranty, all manufacturer stand behind their products and many for more than one year.
Marstar, just ask them about the warranty claims and returns on Norinco 1911..
Gunnar work them over and inspect them before selling them..smart business move.
1851 Navy,
English is your language..read Tbrnk..
This is false.
Wilson was called for other business about two months ago and they denied this. They never offered a Norinco based gun, used components or planned to do so.
That Wilson do work on any type and brands on customer 1911 is not what we talk about.
1911 can be worked over as are Norinco. It will cost more money , time and parts to bring a Norinco to were you want it. Customs shop can do almost anything for a price. Just ask.
Claven2 state that WILSON used the Norinco and offered this as a custom gun. They say NO !! You know better than them I suppose !!!
Why there is a need for some Norinco owner to justify their cheap gun purchase to others ?? Even Claven2 replaced all parts and internal of his perfect Norinco... if they were that great.. why to change all including mags ? they are so nice, why everybody rush to buy American mags for their Norinco instead of original Norinco mags ? Read the forums here on CGN and you will find that many owner have problems with them and other not. This is the major concern with Norinco. Very variable quality.
I had enough Norinco guns in my hand in the last 10 months to make a good opinion of it. Guns from owner who had problems..same Club..different persons..how many example did you have to say to make an opinion for yourself ??
English is your language..read Tbrnk..
Canuck44 said:
This is false.
Wilson was called for other business about two months ago and they denied this. They never offered a Norinco based gun, used components or planned to do so.
That Wilson do work on any type and brands on customer 1911 is not what we talk about.
1911 can be worked over as are Norinco. It will cost more money , time and parts to bring a Norinco to were you want it. Customs shop can do almost anything for a price. Just ask.
Claven2 state that WILSON used the Norinco and offered this as a custom gun. They say NO !! You know better than them I suppose !!!
Why there is a need for some Norinco owner to justify their cheap gun purchase to others ?? Even Claven2 replaced all parts and internal of his perfect Norinco... if they were that great.. why to change all including mags ? they are so nice, why everybody rush to buy American mags for their Norinco instead of original Norinco mags ? Read the forums here on CGN and you will find that many owner have problems with them and other not. This is the major concern with Norinco. Very variable quality.
I had enough Norinco guns in my hand in the last 10 months to make a good opinion of it. Guns from owner who had problems..same Club..different persons..how many example did you have to say to make an opinion for yourself ??
Janeau - My only response is - WRONG! Prior to contracting his own frames and slides Wilson provided custom work on two brands of 1911's. Colt and Norinco.
Here are just a few posts that seem to refute your tirades against Norinco 1911's. AS to your 30 years of experience - One experience a thousand times is but one experience.
http://www.1911forum.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1097660#post1097660
http://www.1911forum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=123337&highlight=Norinco
http://www.1911forum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=108505&highlight=Norinco
Stay Safe
Here are just a few posts that seem to refute your tirades against Norinco 1911's. AS to your 30 years of experience - One experience a thousand times is but one experience.
http://www.1911forum.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1097660#post1097660
http://www.1911forum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=123337&highlight=Norinco
http://www.1911forum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=108505&highlight=Norinco
Stay Safe
Norinco also has its own sub-forum on m1911.org, and I don't see any complaints that even approach Janeau's. Well, with one exception anyway, and that guy believed that the best 1911 was a Colt simply because....wait for it....it was a "Colt." :roll: As for the rest of Janeau's claims about the Norc, I'll let the experts and gunsmiths refute them, but he's already been proven wrong several times about the supposed "USGI" throat on the barrel.
