Why 45/70 and not .458 Win Mag?

IMHO the .460 Weatherby enters the relm of deminishing returns. A .460 G&A (my vote for the best .458) can drive a 500 gr bullet up to about 2400 fps. Will the Weatherby kill anyhing any deader by adding another 300 fps of muzzle velocity? Not only don't I think so, but I suggest that bullet performance on heavy/dangerous game could suffer, particularly a soft point designed for 2000 fps impact velocities. The advantage of velocity beyond 2400-2500 fps is to flatten trajectory not to increase killing power. If a .458/500 at 2400 won't get the job done, you need to go bigger not faster.

Kevin Robertson talks about this sort fo thing in his book "Africa's Most Dangerous". It's an interesting read that I'd recommend to any student of big bore hunting rifles.

The biggest difficulty you get into with anything big is shootability. The 460 Wby just has too much of everything to be of any use without a muzzle brake - and muzzle brakes on hunting rifles are just plain stupid. So if it's not practically shootable, and it has the potential to overperform the bullets available, then what's the point. Oh wait...it's a Weatherby.
 
Kevin Robertson talks about this sort fo thing in his book "Africa's Most Dangerous". It's an interesting read that I'd recommend to any student of big bore hunting rifles.

The biggest difficulty you get into with anything big is shootability. The 460 Wby just has too much of everything to be of any use without a muzzle brake - and muzzle brakes on hunting rifles are just plain stupid. So if it's not practically shootable, and it has the potential to overperform the bullets available, then what's the point. Oh wait...it's a Weatherby.

I picked up Africa's Most Dangerous as soon as it hit the shelf, I wanted it before I went to Africa but had to wait until I was back for a month. You're right, its a great read. Did you notice the pics of the 380 gr Rhinos?
 
Boomer - what do you think of the .460 A-Square Short and the .450 Vincent Short?

The ballistics of the .460 A-Square Short are excellent and in my mind maximize the usefulness of a .458/500. I like bottle case cartridges better than straight ones, so it wins in that respect as well. My complaint is about the cost of brass, as this cartridge must be made from .378 or .460 Weatherby brass. The .460 G&A can be made from comparatively cheap .375 Ultra brass. That was the route I intended to take with my 602 until that very nice .375 Smith barrel fell into my lap.

Again the .450 Vincent is ballistically excellent, but if one had to purchase RWS .404 Jeffery brass, the cost would quickly become prohibitive. If .375 Ultra brass could be substituted, it would be a top choice, similar to the .460 G&A. Given the choice between the short and long version of the Vincent design, my preference would be the long chambered in a magnum length Mauser like the Brno 602.

While some might think I make too much of the cost of the brass, I have over 500 pieces of .375 Ultra brass, and believe that a rifle you don't shoot frequently is a rifle you are unfamiliar with.
 
IMHO the .460 Weatherby enters the relm of deminishing returns. A .460 G&A (my vote for the best .458) can drive a 500 gr bullet up to about 2400 fps. Will the Weatherby kill anyhing any deader by adding another 300 fps of muzzle velocity? Not only don't I think so, but I suggest that bullet performance on heavy/dangerous game could suffer, particularly a soft point designed for 2000 fps impact velocities. The advantage of velocity beyond 2400-2500 fps is to flatten trajectory not to increase killing power. If a .458/500 at 2400 won't get the job done, you need to go bigger not faster.

A person could just download the Weatherby. Lower pressure, much easier to get brass. The G&A will require custom dies and .404 Jeffery brass that is not too easy to find.

Actually, there is no need for a .458/500 that exceeds 2150fps to drop any game in the world. But variety is the spice of life ;)
 
Actually when velocity increases penetration decreases...

That is why the 45-70 has lasted so long it out penetrates almost any other round out there.

That is why Garret loads his 540gr 45-70 loads to 1550fps...

I load my 525gr Beartooth Piledrivers to 1600fps and my 550gr Jae-Bok Young Craters to 1550fps...
 
Actually when velocity increases penetration decreases...

That is why the 45-70 has lasted so long it out penetrates almost any other round out there.

That is why Garret loads his 540gr 45-70 loads to 1550fps...

I load my 525gr Beartooth Piledrivers to 1600fps and my 550gr Jae-Bok Young Craters to 1550fps...

Where did you buy those big bullets? I tried to get some from Beartooth, but they will not ship to Canada.
 
Try Jae-Bok Young the last I heard he ships here think he calls the bullets lead plugs.

Here is his link http://www.competitor-pistol.com/jbyoung.html

From his site...

Thousands of Craters have been shipped to most demanding big game hunters in Alaska and Canada who like to reload their own 45/70s for ultimate knock-down and the deepest penetration power as well as making spare ammo to practice. If you’re a serious reloader, you can now assemble the best quality big game ammo at a fraction of the expensive factory heavy weight 45/70 ammo that often costs $50 to $60 for a box of 20 rounds.
 
I picked up Africa's Most Dangerous as soon as it hit the shelf, I wanted it before I went to Africa but had to wait until I was back for a month. You're right, its a great read. Did you notice the pics of the 380 gr Rhinos?

Not through the book yet. Every time I try to sit down with the book Emily starts crying. Trying to juggle a 2 month old and a hardcover book isn't always feasible. Then SWMBO comes in and makes some remark about whether I should be reading or spending time with the baby and I cave.

Maybe a pink 10/22 under the tree would convince her I`m still in the running for dad of the year:D.
 
Actually when velocity increases penetration decreases...

Think that depends on bullet design and construction. A soft projectile, like a 12 gauge slug will actually penetrate more (but expand less) at 100 yards than it will 20. A 458 hard solid will penetrate further with more velocity.
 
http://www.garrettcartridges.com/Penetration.htm

Penetration: the 45-70 & 458 Magnums Randy Garrett

The following article is based on bullet penetration test results as measured in water-saturated penetration materials (wet newspapers).

Water is the primary substance of life, and constitutes about 90% of the content of all mammals. I have observed that some "testers" have

chosen wood boards or dry newspapers for penetration testing material, and this is a very poor choice, which in no way simulates the

characteristics of a bullet impact with animal flesh. Wood tends to channel the bullet path, and is less demonstrative of the terminal instabilities

inherent to non-expanding bullets when impacting game animals, and is thus an inferior material for the testing of bullet penetration characteristics.

Water-saturated penetration materials such as newspapers or ballistic gelatin are far superior with regards to their ability to demonstrate the

terminal instabilities that typically occur when non-expanding bullets impact live animal flesh.



There are few things in the world of ballistics less well understood than the issues relating to comparative penetration. It is commonly believed that the faster one drives a solid bullet, the deeper the penetration. We see this all the time in the various attempts, via new calibers, to achieve higher velocity for improved performance on heavy game. The current rage among big bore shooters seems to be the 458 Lott, since it achieves a good 200-300 fps higher velocity than the 458 Winchester Magnum. It is claimed that the new 458 Lott is an improvement over the 458 Winchester Magnum since its higher velocity supposedly results in more lethal impact-effect and deeper penetration. This, it is claimed, is just the ticket for busting the heaviest game. Of course, the new 458 Lott also achieves greater kinetic energy as a result of its higher velocity, and this is also a convincing characteristic for those brave souls in pursuit of the heaviest game.

Despite all the impressive "science" deployed to reinforce the assertion that higher speed projectiles are more capable of inflicting the deep penetration and impact-effect required to reliably anchor heavy game, one finds that these assertions simply do not withstand common sense, repeatable penetration testing. In fact, if one conducts these tests, one finds that there is nothing that can be observed which supports the assertion that the faster one drives non-expanding solids the deeper they penetrate.

Very interestingly, if one takes the Hornady 500-grain .458 diameter solid bullet and compares the penetration that results from impact speeds varying from about 1500-fps to 2500-fps, one finds that the higher impact speeds produce the least penetration. When driven to about 1500-fps (as the 45-70 will do) one finds that such solids produce nearly 6-feet of penetration in wet newspapers. When the same bullet is driven to about 2100-fps (as is characteristic of the 458 Winchester Magnum) one finds that the penetration is reduced to about 4 to 4 and 1/2 feet. When one tests the same bullet at 2300-2400 fps (as is characteristic of the 458 Lott) one finds that the penetration comes up nearly 20% short of that produced by the 458 Winchester. And when one tests the same bullet at the blistering speeds characteristic of the mighty 460 Weatherby Magnum, one finds that the penetration achieved is the most shallow produced by the various 458s.

What is apparent from testing is that penetration stops increasing at impact speeds above about 1250-1300 fps. When the impact speeds significantly surpass about 1600-fps, there is a very definite and measurable decrease in penetration depth. This raises some interesting issues regarding the relationship between kinetic energy generation and impact-effect. Although higher velocity projectiles always generate more kinetic energy they clearly do not produce deeper penetration, and when the velocities reach the levels common to today's magnums, the increases in velocity result in significantly reduced penetration. Simply stated, the faster they strike the faster they stop. If the builders of the various 458 Magnum calibers would simply advocate driving the heaviest bullets their calibers can push to about 1500-1600 fps, the super-powerful magnums would produce penetration depth unobtainable with 500-grain solid bullets at any speed. A 650-700 grain 458 solid at 1550-fps from the magnum 458s would produce penetration that would clearly redefine the 458 Magnums. However there is no evidence that such developments are soon to appear.



Fortunately for all of us who love the 45-70, it can be considered to be the deepest penetrating of the various 458 calibers. This is not due to any particular inherent superiority, but due to the 45-70’s "inability" to achieve the velocity with heavy bullets that leads to decreases in penetration. The reasons why high impact speeds reduce penetration are not well understood. However, anyone who takes the time to run comparative penetration tests will find that those of us who pack a good 45-70 with heavy bullets need not take a back seat to any other 458 caliber, especially when the game is heavy and the penetration requirements are great.
 
If Magnum Research chambered their "BFR" in .458 Win Mag along side the already 45-70. I'd be waiting in You Tube , to see some pretty funny Shiit!:eek:
BFR_long-Cyl-w-Mount.jpg
 
Fortunately for all of us who love the 45-70, it can be considered to be the deepest penetrating of the various 458 calibers. This is not due to any particular inherent superiority, but due to the 45-70’s "inability" to achieve the velocity with heavy bullets that leads to decreases in penetration. The reasons why high impact speeds reduce penetration are not well understood. However, anyone who takes the time to run comparative penetration tests will find that those of us who pack a good 45-70 with heavy bullets need not take a back seat to any other 458 caliber, especially when the game is heavy and the penetration requirements are great.

If the .45-70 is so good, why is it not widely used in Africa as a dangerous game caliber? You know, it's funny in that particular article that he supposedly shoots down the virtues of the .458 Lott, however the men who actually use it on dangerous African game, use it for a reason.

The .458 mag topped this ballistic test. (to be fair though, the .45-70 wasn't loaded up with 500 gr bullets)

http://www.fs.fed.us/pnw/pubs/gtr152
 
CC, there are many elements that can effect the depth of penetration of a solid bullet through a fluid bearing material, but the assertion that a slower bullet will penetrate deeper than a faster one is so far off my own experience and observation that it makes my head hurt. That lower velocity reduces penetration is is surely the observation of PHs of long experience as well, in that one hears the suggestion that velocity of a solid should be reduced to prevent over penetration when shooting in a tight buffalo herd. Yet I don't question the observations of the author, so lets examine a couple of ideas . . .

The properly designed solid for use on very heavy/dangerous game should be short in length, have parallel sides, and have a hemispherical or flat nose. The short length provides stability to the bullet at the time of impact, as does a fast rate of twist. A bullet yaws at impact, this is called precession. The faster the bullet is spinning, the less it precesses so the straighter and deeper it's penetration. We've all seen pictures of failed solids that have their tails squashed flat, normally these are long for caliber solids. This failure is a result of precession. Due to it's greater stability, a short bullet will exhibit less precession than a long one, and due to it's lighter weight must be going faster to have equal penetration. Then again, if the long solid impacts in a yaw, penetration is compromised, and increasing the velocity could very well make things worse by increasing the forces working on the long and only marginally stable bullet. In other words, increasing the velocity of a marginally stable bullet will decrease it's penetration. IMHO, most .458 barrels designed for use with solids have too slow a twist, often 1:16 where they would perform much better with a 1:10, resulting in penetration that would be both straighter and deeper. Modern mono-metal solids are more resistant to flatenning when they precess at impact, but their greater length exacerbates the yaw problem. The old Kynoch style solids with their tapered nose sections have always penetrated poorly.
 
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A person could just download the Weatherby. Lower pressure, much easier to get brass. The G&A will require custom dies and .404 Jeffery brass that is not too easy to find.

Actually, there is no need for a .458/500 that exceeds 2150fps to drop any game in the world. But variety is the spice of life ;)

Brass for the .460 Weatherby is horribly expensive, and if you are looking for .404 Jeffery brass it will be likewise, but .375 Ultra brass is affordable and plentiful. Dies cost what ever dies cost, that is pretty much immaterial as its a one time purchase. Choosing the big Weatherby case (.378, .416, .460) will cost you a round in the magazine as well, where I can load 5 .375 Ultras in my 602, and increase that by one with a modified or after market floorplate.

With respect to velocity, the only way to get 2150 from a .458 is to believe Winchester's propaganda; the case volume just isn't there to support that velocity with a 500 gr bullet. The .458 Lott is a step in the right direction, but some say that straight wall nose heavy cartridges don't feed particularly well from a magazine. Given a fast twist barrel, a .458/500 pretty much reaches its performance apex at 2400 fps. As for down loading a Weatherby, it will require a larger powder volume to match the velocity attainable from the Lott or the .460 G&A; as a result, the recoil will be more severe from the Weatherby given equal bullet weight and velocity from both cartridges when fired in similar rifles.
 
Not through the book yet. Every time I try to sit down with the book Emily starts crying. Trying to juggle a 2 month old and a hardcover book isn't always feasible. Then SWMBO comes in and makes some remark about whether I should be reading or spending time with the baby and I cave.

Maybe a pink 10/22 under the tree would convince her I`m still in the running for dad of the year:D.

The solution is to read to the baby, and instead of the 10/22 get a pink CZ 452 Scout tricked out with a receiver sight, taller front sight, sling swivels, glass/pillar bedded, trigger adjusted, and a couple of 10 round magazines.:p
 
Brass for the .460 Weatherby is horribly expensive, and if you are looking for .404 Jeffery brass it will be likewise, but .375 Ultra brass is affordable and plentiful.

Hornady is now offering .404 brass - US$32.49 / 20 from Midway USA. While it is still expensive, it is a big price drop from before.
 
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