Why 45/70 and not .458 Win Mag?

Boomer said:
Brass for the .460 Weatherby is horribly expensive, and if you are looking for .404 Jeffery brass it will be likewise, but .375 Ultra brass is affordable and plentiful. Dies cost what ever dies cost, that is pretty much immaterial as its a one time purchase. Choosing the big Weatherby case (.378, .416, .460) will cost you a round in the magazine as well, where I can load 5 .375 Ultras in my 602, and increase that by one with a modified or after market floorplate.

With respect to velocity, the only way to get 2150 from a .458 is to believe Winchester's propaganda; the case volume just isn't there to support that velocity with a 500 gr bullet. The .458 Lott is a step in the right direction, but some say that straight wall nose heavy cartridges don't feed particularly well from a magazine. Given a fast twist barrel, a .458/500 pretty much reaches its performance apex at 2400 fps. As for down loading a Weatherby, it will require a larger powder volume to match the velocity attainable from the Lott or the .460 G&A; as a result, the recoil will be more severe from the Weatherby given equal bullet weight and velocity from both cartridges when fired in similar rifles.
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I have a .458WM and will take you up on that. I will be heading out to the range this weekend and will take my chrony along. Mine is a CZ550 and will be loaded with 500gr Hornady and to the standard OAL ;)
 
Hiding underwater can stop bullets from hitting you.

partly confirmed

All supersonic bullets (up to .50-caliber) disintegrated in less than 3 feet (90 cm) of water, but slower velocity bullets, like pistol rounds, need up to 8 feet (2.4 metres) of water to slow to non-lethal speeds. Shotgun slugs require even more depth (the exact depth couldn’t be determined because their one test broke the rig). However, as most water-bound shots are fired from an angle, less actual depth is needed to create the necessary separation.

http://mythbustersresults.com/episode34
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Gun selection

The various guns they tested during the myth were:

* 9mm pistol
* M1 Garand/.30-06
* Replica Civil War black powder rifle
* Shotgun
* .50 cal rifle

Regarding the .50 cal ammunition:

Adam: "That's what this thing fires?"
Jamie: "It's smaller than my head, it's alright"
Water tank tests

They built a 'ballistic tank' out of 1" thick acrylic and iron girders. They stuck a block of ballistics gel into the tank that could be raised up and down to different depths.

* 9mm @ 6ft: the bullet went straight through the ballistic gel -- fatal
* 9mm @ 7ft: the bullet went straight through again -- fatal
* 9mm @ 8ft: the bullet only went 1/2" into the gel -- non-fatal
* 3" deer slug + Shotgun @ 6ft: As one might have expected, firing a shotgun into a narrow tank of water shattered the tank and sent everyone running to turn off all the lights to prevent short circuits. The slug shot went through the ballistics gel -- fatal

The shotgun test was the end of that particular test setup.

Pool tests

A vertical rig was a worst-case scenario. In order to make it easier to test and also to make it correspond better with a real-world scenario, they decided to make their new rig be at a 30 degree angle. At a 30 degree angle with an 8 ft penetrating bullet, you would only have to be 4ft underwater.

Someone strangely agreed to allowing Adam and Jamie to shoot off guns in their pool. Adam made a new 20 ft railway for the ballistics gel target and they mounted it at a 23 degree angle.

For the first test they used a replica Civil War black powder rifle shooting Jamie's homemade bullets at 1000 ft/s.

* Replica Civil War rifle @ 15 ft: The bullet veered way off target.
* Replica Civil War rifle@ 5 ft: they couldn't find the bullet and the ballistics gel was still intact -- nonfatal
* Replica Civil War rifle @ 3 ft: The bullet went through the gel -- fatal. At this distance, though, the gel was only 2 ft underwater because of the angle.

They switched to a .223 rifle, which shoots at 2500 ft/s

* .223 rifle @ 10 ft: the full metal jacket bullet shattered into tiny bits upon hitting the water -- nonfatal
* 223 rifle@ 3 ft: once again the bullet broke up. The tip of the bullet was resting on the ballistics gel -- nonfatal (myth confirmed)

The next gun up was the M1, which shoots at 2800 ft/s. In their Bulletproof Glass mythbusting, the M1 was capable of penetrating 2.5" of bulletproof glass.

* M1@ 10 ft: tiny bullet fragments once again
* M1@ 2 ft: the bullet only pierced the gel 4", which would be enough to just pierce the skin.

They finally broke out the big gun, the .50 cal with armor-piercing rounds, which are shot at 3000 ft/s.

Adam: "Hopefully we'll be gone before the pool fully drains"

* .50 cal @ 10 ft: even though the water exploded, the ballistics gel was intact. Water made it all the way up to the ceiling. As it was with the previous guns, the bullet round came apart on impact. It lost all of it's energy within the first 3 ft. You would be safe 14" underwater at a 23 angle from a .50 cal.

confirmed: you can protect yourself from a bullet by diving underwater. If the shooter were directly overhead, you would probably be safe from most guns at 8 ft. At a 30 degree angle, you would only have to be 3 ft underwater to be safe.
http://kwc.org/mythbusters/2005/07/mythbusters_bulletproof_water.html
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There's more to this story. I'll try to dig it up.
 
444shooter said:
^ That would hold true for all modern calibers then. The H&H would be affected as well..no?
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I believe a big part of the problem is that you need compressed loads in the .458 WM to reach those velocities. You can load a .375 H&H to fairly low pressure (as the originals were - 2400fps with a 300gr bullet IIRC) and still have an effective round for Africa.

Take a look at this article, where the author discusses the "shelf life" of .458 WM ammo. According to Hornady their heavy magnum .458 ammo has a shelf life of only 6 months when subjected to the high African temperature. Note that the .416 RM suffers from similar problems.

http://huntnetwork.net/modules/wfsection/html/Ahthe%20.458%85%20a%20Cartridge%20I%20Love%20To%20Hate.pdf


ETA - CC, check out this article (from Africa) regarding penetration:
http://huntnetwork.net/modules/wfsection/html/Ahdangerous%20Game%2011%20No%201.pdf
 
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444shooter said:
^ That would hold true for all modern calibers then. The H&H would be affected as well..no?
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In addition to 1899's comments, note that the H&H has a heavily tapered case, one of the most tapered you'll encounter. As such it is far easier to extract when "sticky" than the straightwalled .458, or a .45-70 hot loaded for that matter. In fact, it is extremely hard to get a case stuck in a .375 H&H due to that massive taper.
 
444shooter said:
I have a .458WM and will take you up on that. I will be heading out to the range this weekend and will take my chrony along. Mine is a CZ550 and will be loaded with 500gr Hornady and to the standard OAL ;)
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Yup, I worded that poorly, and there is even I trick, that I won't divulge, that allows you to make .458 Lott velocity with a .458 Winchester case. Those of you who have extensively read on the use of the .458 in Africa might have come across it. The trick involves lock-tite, so it isn't something that will be found in a loading manual and will be of no interest to those who follow loading recipes to the letter. But the point I was attempting to make was that the velocity Winchester was bragging up when the .458 hit the scene stretched the design to the seams. In the '50s and '60s, the published velocity of many factory loaded cartridges was fiction.

Ammo that was stored in the heat, over time pushed bullets beyond their crimp. Those that didn't could experience swings in velocity that upon testing could of been as low as 1900 and as high as 2200. Government people who were issued a .458 for elephant cropping or to destroy a single dangerous animal found that bullet failure was far too common once the factory ammo had been in storage for several years. Handloading was not an option, and in Kenya could land you in prison. Despite that the .458 was touted as great medicine for heavy African game on this side of the world, and for a guy who would spend a month or less in the field with fresh ammo it was. With new, temperature stable powder, these complaints will have certainly improved, but the fact remains, 500 @ 2150 is pretty hot for the .458, and now that long for caliber mono-metal bullets have entered the scene, a 500 gr X further reduces the .458s already small powder column.

If all of this sounds pretty negative towards the poor old .458, that is not my intention. It is a pretty good round and has taken plenty of game, although it might do best with a 500 gr bullet loaded to 2050. PH Finn Agaard used a .458 to the exclusion of anything else during the years he guided hunters in Kenya, and kept excellent records concerning bullet performance. He apparently had no complaints, but he would not use factory ammo over more than a single season.
 
A little aside. But could ammo, specifically the "powder" within it, change in characteristics by being bounced around in a vehicle for months on end? Purhaps breaking it down into smaller granules giving it different burning characteristics.
 
Rubbing off the graphite coating, that slows burn rate, is a potential concern with some powders. The larger the granuals, the more of an issue I would surmise, but this is just my guess. Not an issue with pistol powders etc, as they are so fast anyhow, and I know of many people who polish their loaded pistol ammo in a vibratory case cleaner (don't try this at home...). With a powder more dependent on its granual size and coatings for its burn rate, I imagine this could be a greater issue. The larger the grains, the more opportunity for them to "work" on each other as well.
 
Boomer said:
Yup, I worded that poorly, and there is even I trick, that I won't divulge, that allows you to make .458 Lott velocity with a .458 Winchester case. Those of you who have extensively read on the use of the .458 in Africa might have come across it. The trick involves lock-tite, so it isn't something that will be found in a loading manual and will be of no interest to those who follow loading recipes to the letter. But the point I was attempting to make was that the velocity Winchester was bragging up when the .458 hit the scene stretched the design to the seams. In the '50s and '60s, the published velocity of many factory loaded cartridges was fiction.

Ammo that was stored in the heat, over time pushed bullets beyond their crimp. Those that didn't could experience swings in velocity that upon testing could of been as low as 1900 and as high as 2200. Government people who were issued a .458 for elephant cropping or to destroy a single dangerous animal found that bullet failure was far too common once the factory ammo had been in storage for several years. Handloading was not an option, and in Kenya could land you in prison. Despite that the .458 was touted as great medicine for heavy African game on this side of the world, and for a guy who would spend a month or less in the field with fresh ammo it was. With new, temperature stable powder, these complaints will have certainly improved, but the fact remains, 500 @ 2150 is pretty hot for the .458, and now that long for caliber mono-metal bullets have entered the scene, a 500 gr X further reduces the .458s already small powder column.

If all of this sounds pretty negative towards the poor old .458, that is not my intention. It is a pretty good round and has taken plenty of game, although it might do best with a 500 gr bullet loaded to 2050. PH Finn Agaard used a .458 to the exclusion of anything else during the years he guided hunters in Kenya, and kept excellent records concerning bullet performance. He apparently had no complaints, but he would not use factory ammo over more than a single season.
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Ron Thomson, a Gov't cropping agent shot 1000+ ele's and used a .458WM exclusively. Read his book Mahoboh. He swore by the .458WM.
 
To add to that....

Mike LaGrange - with 6000 elephants under his belt - claimed the standard 458 was his favorite and perfectly adequate for any game under any conditions. Harry Selby traded in his 416 Rigby for a standard 458 and Finn Aagaard claimed that most of the bashing of the 458 - including Jack Lott's - was due to poor shooting.
 
It's a bloody waste and shame so many are culled. Yes, they say it protects biodiversity and habitat, but humans always seem to manage to screw everything up with our supposed intelligence. It seems before us, animal populations managed themsleves better than we ever will be able, and yet we meddle. If our species could stop viewing every other species as a "resource" of ours, our evolution and future would finally be making a turn off a dead end path. Sorry for the hijack, it's just when I see figures of up to 6,000 elephants killed by one man, I get very, very disgusted with our species.
 
444shooter said:
To add to that....

Mike LaGrange - with 6000 elephants under his belt - claimed the standard 458 was his favorite and perfectly adequate for any game under any conditions. Harry Selby traded in his 416 Rigby for a standard 458 and Finn Aagaard claimed that most of the bashing of the 458 - including Jack Lott's - was due to poor shooting.
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I think we can all agree that part is a bit of a stretch as the range limitations of the cartridge come into play, but when used within 300 yards I don't have any complaint with the rest of it. Harry Selby went to the .458 when it became too difficult and too expensive to find .416 Rigby ammo. Given a choice between the .416 Rigby and the .458 Winchester, and I've owned both, the .416 is a much better general purpose hunting cartridge.

In those days, their only real choice was a .375 or a .458 in a magazine rifle, and for solving problems at close range to protect your clients the .458 wins. The old .450 #2 Nitro Express was a better cartridge, that would actually drive a 500 gr bullet at 2200 fps with low pressure. But it's long length and rimmed case excluded it from being chambered in anything but a single shot or a double rifle. There were all sorts of custom big bore rifle available, as there are now, but in those days PHs weren't wealthy men and their rifles reflected a working man's tools, hence they did not carry a double or a custom big bore bolt gun.

The poor performance from factory .458 Winchester ammo stored for long periods of time in the heat is of public record, and is mentioned frequently when discussions concerning the use of the .458 by government agencies in Africa arise. Finn and Harry were probably very careful to keep fresh ammo available when serious work was at hand.
 
Ardent said:
It's a bloody waste and shame so many are culled. Yes, they say it protects biodiversity and habitat, but humans always seem to manage to screw everything up with our supposed intelligence. It seems before us, animal populations managed themsleves better than we ever will be able, and yet we meddle. If our species could stop viewing every other species as a "resource" of ours, our evolution and future would finally be making a turn off a dead end path. Sorry for the hijack, it's just when I see figures of up to 6,000 elephants killed by one man, I get very, very disgusted with our species.
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I agree it is a shame, but unfortunately it is necessary. So much of wild Africa has given way to the plow, and agriculture is necessary to feed a burgeoning population. In countries without a social safety net, the only way to ensure you will be looked after in your later years is to have lots of kids while you are young, thus Africa has a very high and young population.

If it was left up to the average indigenous African, there would be little or no wild game. Large predators and bad tempered grass eaters are simply too dangerous to have around. Add to that that a single band of elephants could wipe out the food supply of a local village overnight, and you might appreciate the scope of the problem. What plains game might be left would be slaughtered for meat by market hunters using snare lines.

Cropping thus becomes a useful tool, but it is a job for the expert, not sport hunters. Done properly, nothing escapes from a family group. While I don't have the stats in front of me, I would anticipate that a large percentage of the elephants killed in a cropping operation are calves. If a calf escapes to grow up, he will for his entire life be on a mission to kill every human being he encounters. This is well documented, and there have been many such killer elephants created before the threat was fully understood. The numbers of elephants killed in culling operations should not be a concern provided that:
A) the herd numbers are sufficient to sustain a healthy population
B) that culls are only conducted as a last resort
C) that culls are conducted by experts
D) only certain identified families are culled
D) culls only take place where there might be or has been conflict between human populations and elephants.
 
I believe that the main problem with the 458 in teh old days was that with the powders available at that point, the powder charge had to be heavily compressed in order to get to 2150 with a 500 gr bullet. Today, with the advances in propellants and bulelts, you can probably get there easier and mroe reliably. Using heavier than conventional bullets (Speer African Grand Slams with their Tungsten core) you will have a shorter bullet and thus more room for powder.

I believe that the 458 Lott is to the 458 Winchester what the 416 Rigby is to the 416 Remington (ignoring the fact that the Lott came after the WM whereas the Rigby was the original 416). The Lott allows you to get to 2150 FPS with a 500 gr bullet at a lower chamber pressure than the Winchester. That obviates the requirement to compress the powder charge and eliminates the potential for sticking that the more slab-sided cases have. It's for exactly that reason that the 416 Remington is a poor choice for Africa while the 416 Rigby is still ideal.
 
With powders like AA2230, compressed loads are a thing of the past in the WM. Lots of guys over on Accurate Reloading forum and 24hr Campsite can attest to this. What it all boils down to is people still holding on to old information pertaining to the inconsistent performance of the WM back in the 60's and 70's when heavily compressed loads where used. This is no longer the case with modern powders.
 
BigUglyMan said:
I believe that the main problem with the 458 in teh old days was that with the powders available at that point, the powder charge had to be heavily compressed in order to get to 2150 with a 500 gr bullet. Today, with the advances in propellants and bulelts, you can probably get there easier and mroe reliably. Using heavier than conventional bullets (Speer African Grand Slams with their Tungsten core) you will have a shorter bullet and thus more room for powder.

I believe that the 458 Lott is to the 458 Winchester what the 416 Rigby is to the 416 Remington (ignoring the fact that the Lott came after the WM whereas the Rigby was the original 416). The Lott allows you to get to 2150 FPS with a 500 gr bullet at a lower chamber pressure than the Winchester. That obviates the requirement to compress the powder charge and eliminates the potential for sticking that the more slab-sided cases have. It's for exactly that reason that the 416 Remington is a poor choice for Africa while the 416 Rigby is still ideal.
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Huh?
I've had a 416 Rigby and still own a 416 Rem.
Both will shoot 400's at 2400 so not sure why the Rem is a bad choice?
If you want to push the 400's faster the Rigby wins but not sure why the Rem is a poor choice when it pushes the identical bullet at 2400 which is where the Rigby made it's reputation.
I've pushed the Rigby to 2700ish and the Rem to 2550ish with handloads.
 
Pickles said:
Huh?
I've had a 416 Rigby and still own a 416 Rem.
Both will shoot 400's at 2400 so not sure why the Rem is a bad choice?
If you want to push the 400's faster the Rigby wins but not sure why the Rem is a poor choice when it pushes the identical bullet at 2400 which is where the Rigby made it's reputation.
I've pushed the Rigby to 2700ish and the Rem to 2550ish with handloads.
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Correct me if I am wrong, but I think he means in the chamber pressure difference. The Rigby factory ammo is loaded to a lower pressure.
 
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