Why are Canadian's too good to patch when they shoot?
- Thread starter Madness
- Start date
I don't have a problem whats so ever patching, if so required !
but, it is nice when you don't have to, so you can enjoy by socializing with your squad, joking around, etc...
But, it would be good if there are a few extra workers, just in case it's a rainy day & you have to clean your mags after each stage (which takes a while)
or to help things along, in a preventative measure to ensure a match doesn't fall behind schedule, which never happens, right
but, it is nice when you don't have to, so you can enjoy by socializing with your squad, joking around, etc...
But, it would be good if there are a few extra workers, just in case it's a rainy day & you have to clean your mags after each stage (which takes a while)
or to help things along, in a preventative measure to ensure a match doesn't fall behind schedule, which never happens, right
Patching, RO'ing at the Can Nats
I typed up my tongue in cheek reply to Madness to stir up some thought about the Canadian Nationals...seemed to work.
For the Canadian Nationals to be a real first class competition certain changes would be needed.
You simply cannot have high level competing shooters RO'ing other competing shooters...especially where handling the props or seeing the stage up close more than for walk through is only allowed by the RO. This is match endorsed cheating.
Even if the competitor RO does everything right, the other competitor RO's working the stage may not make the same calls for scoring, procedurals or DQs, it simply is not equal.
If the match fee is appropriate to the event ( say $200)there should be enough to allow for dedicted ROs and CRO staff who can shoot the pre-match and have their room and board paid for the match...which will be less time as 18 stages can easily be shot in 3 half days. There are sponsors who will kick in for the match, even in Canada.
( the US nats put 500 shooters through 18 stages in 3 half days at 6 stage / half day, the European championships will put 900 shooters through 24 stages in 4 half days with a full day off to sight see.)
As for patching, at every other match ( except World or Euro champs, but they cost $400 + to shoot) the shooters on each squad patch their squad's targets, not patching is grounds for unsportsman like DQ. If someone attempts to cheat they will be quickly found out, but it's not a problem.
Those who can should actually try to go to some big matches outside Canada, you may be suprised how well run many are.
I don't expect to change anyone's attitude because in Canada we always seem to want to do it the way we always did it and then say it is tradition.
I typed up my tongue in cheek reply to Madness to stir up some thought about the Canadian Nationals...seemed to work.
For the Canadian Nationals to be a real first class competition certain changes would be needed.
You simply cannot have high level competing shooters RO'ing other competing shooters...especially where handling the props or seeing the stage up close more than for walk through is only allowed by the RO. This is match endorsed cheating.
Even if the competitor RO does everything right, the other competitor RO's working the stage may not make the same calls for scoring, procedurals or DQs, it simply is not equal.
If the match fee is appropriate to the event ( say $200)there should be enough to allow for dedicted ROs and CRO staff who can shoot the pre-match and have their room and board paid for the match...which will be less time as 18 stages can easily be shot in 3 half days. There are sponsors who will kick in for the match, even in Canada.
( the US nats put 500 shooters through 18 stages in 3 half days at 6 stage / half day, the European championships will put 900 shooters through 24 stages in 4 half days with a full day off to sight see.)
As for patching, at every other match ( except World or Euro champs, but they cost $400 + to shoot) the shooters on each squad patch their squad's targets, not patching is grounds for unsportsman like DQ. If someone attempts to cheat they will be quickly found out, but it's not a problem.
Those who can should actually try to go to some big matches outside Canada, you may be suprised how well run many are.
I don't expect to change anyone's attitude because in Canada we always seem to want to do it the way we always did it and then say it is tradition.
well I would pay that if we could get the dedicated RO's and CRO's. but I still don't think we have a big enough pool of shooters to draw from. Maybe bring in some Americans to do the RO'ing. I know they are looking to better their people on IPSC World Body rules, this could be seen as a training thing for them, and a bonus for us?
Nationals format
Well, let's see now.....
We are the 4th largest region in the IPSC confederation. That means about 95% of the regions below us can do the job properly with a hugely smaller membership. Do we need to ask Panama or maybe El Salvador how to run our nationals? Why are we the only region in the confederation to run a perverse fromat like this?
Do hockey players call penalties or off sides on each other??
Do race car drivers do the job of marshalling the race?
Do athletes judge each other in gymnastics??
In any real sport, refereeing is left to just that: referees.
Impartial, unaffiliated, unbiased referees.
Last I checked, we are affiliated to an International Sport.
Why can't we just start to do things properly? We have more than enough excellent RO's across the country who would be willing to work a Nationals.
Slavex said:
Well, let's see now.....
We are the 4th largest region in the IPSC confederation. That means about 95% of the regions below us can do the job properly with a hugely smaller membership. Do we need to ask Panama or maybe El Salvador how to run our nationals? Why are we the only region in the confederation to run a perverse fromat like this?
Do hockey players call penalties or off sides on each other??
Do race car drivers do the job of marshalling the race?
Do athletes judge each other in gymnastics??
In any real sport, refereeing is left to just that: referees.
Impartial, unaffiliated, unbiased referees.
Last I checked, we are affiliated to an International Sport.
Why can't we just start to do things properly? We have more than enough excellent RO's across the country who would be willing to work a Nationals.
Nationals Format
Whoever said anything about "at your own expense"?
Slavex just indicated he would be prepared to pay the real entry fee for putting on a real nationals. So would I, in a heartbeat. The money saved for the extra 2 or three days in hotels, car rentals, meals, etc.... is at least 3 times what the entry fee increase would be to cover real match expenses.
Not trinkets and silly expensive props, but on match staff!!
If it means paying trip expenses, meals and accomodation for the RO corps, then that's what it will take. The rest of the world can do it. Why can't we???
MrFritz said:
Whoever said anything about "at your own expense"?
Slavex just indicated he would be prepared to pay the real entry fee for putting on a real nationals. So would I, in a heartbeat. The money saved for the extra 2 or three days in hotels, car rentals, meals, etc.... is at least 3 times what the entry fee increase would be to cover real match expenses.
Not trinkets and silly expensive props, but on match staff!!
If it means paying trip expenses, meals and accomodation for the RO corps, then that's what it will take. The rest of the world can do it. Why can't we???
stormbringer
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- S.W. Ontario
Are you saying that you want Nationals with R/Os that do not get to shoot?
Really?
Well I am a CRO and I can say most certainly that if I book time off work for a Nationals........I fully expect to shoot the match.
Now If I were paid my full normal salary I might be interested in doing it without shooting. But otherwise where is the incentive?
I do love the sport..........that is why I am a CRO and a MD....without SOMEONE doing it there is not sport for any of us.
Really?
Well I am a CRO and I can say most certainly that if I book time off work for a Nationals........I fully expect to shoot the match.
Now If I were paid my full normal salary I might be interested in doing it without shooting. But otherwise where is the incentive?
I do love the sport..........that is why I am a CRO and a MD....without SOMEONE doing it there is not sport for any of us.
ics
Whoever said anything about RO's not shooting the match?
Where did I say that?
Of course RO's get to shoot the match. RO's and match staff shoot the pre match before the main competition starts, so they can fully concentrate on their job of running the match. Just like everywhere else in the world!!
stormbringer said:
Whoever said anything about RO's not shooting the match?
Where did I say that?
Of course RO's get to shoot the match. RO's and match staff shoot the pre match before the main competition starts, so they can fully concentrate on their job of running the match. Just like everywhere else in the world!!
stormbringer said:
Well have RO's and CRO's shoot the match on a dedicated day just for them. For Score or not either way the Staff will have the opportunity to shoot and more competitors will come out and shoot match if they have time away from range to take in the sights.
Just image Stormbringer... you use the 2007 Nationals as an excuse to bring out the wife and kids to see B.C. and as a bonus you get to shoot a match as well.... and not having to be at the range every day of your visit...
The people who wish to work do so knowing full well they are there to work before they signed on... you'd be surprised how many would volunteer to work if hotel and meals were provided...
I for one did not shoot the 2006 nationals because of time restraints. I could only get 2 days off work... If competitors weren't required to be at the match most of the week I most likely would have attended. I'm sure there are others who are in the same situation.
But most importantly what we are missing here is not whether we patch our own or not... but having a dedicated RO staff to make the consistent calls. I experienced matches where 1 RO will allow something yet another RO will not allow the same thing the next day. On a nation match we should avoid this if possible...
If at the end of the day there aren't enough members who wish to sign up as dedicated staff then the format would revert back to our traditional ways. that way no one can complain... let's at least try....
Has anyone looked at what the additional cost per person would be to a 300 person match? I haven't been to a nationals so I personally don't know, but I would think something on the order of 16-18 stages x 3 people per stage (1 CRO, 2 RO) + RM + Stats + a few extra in case of sickness or whatever = around 55-60 officials.
If you are figuring 3 nights of hotel @ $120/night + average of $500/person airfare + breakfast ($15/person) + dinner ($20/person) [lunch at the range] ***Note - $15 for breakfast and $20 for dinner doesn't go a long ways these days unless you go to McDonalds, airfare across the country is running close to $1000 right now, $300 if you're within a Province or two of the match and it only goes up the closer to the match date that a person books*** then you're looking at about $965/official or $57,900 which does not include transportation to and from the match to the hotel for those people without vehicles. For a 300 person match than means an extra $193/person, assuming that's 300 people in addition to the match officials (have the Nationals ever had 360 people want to shoot it before?) AND I would think consideration would also have to be given for renting a bus or two to transport match officials from the match hotel to the range.
So, instead of a Nationals costing $195 per person ala Vancouver 2007 it is conceivable it could cost closer to $400/person. We're already an expensive sport so maybe an additional $200/competitor is ok, I would hope someone would work out the numbers and poll the membership before making a decision though.
If you are figuring 3 nights of hotel @ $120/night + average of $500/person airfare + breakfast ($15/person) + dinner ($20/person) [lunch at the range] ***Note - $15 for breakfast and $20 for dinner doesn't go a long ways these days unless you go to McDonalds, airfare across the country is running close to $1000 right now, $300 if you're within a Province or two of the match and it only goes up the closer to the match date that a person books*** then you're looking at about $965/official or $57,900 which does not include transportation to and from the match to the hotel for those people without vehicles. For a 300 person match than means an extra $193/person, assuming that's 300 people in addition to the match officials (have the Nationals ever had 360 people want to shoot it before?) AND I would think consideration would also have to be given for renting a bus or two to transport match officials from the match hotel to the range.
So, instead of a Nationals costing $195 per person ala Vancouver 2007 it is conceivable it could cost closer to $400/person. We're already an expensive sport so maybe an additional $200/competitor is ok, I would hope someone would work out the numbers and poll the membership before making a decision though.
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98Brigadeer you are guilty of Bad Math
Most ranges capable of holding the Nationals only have 5 or 6 pits, so 1 CRO and 2 RO = 18 RO,s
120 / 2 ( 2 per room) x 5 nts = 300.00 for hotel
50 /day for meals x 5 days = 250.00 for meals
even if 500 was allowed for travel total is $1050 / RO
Note that we are only adding 12 dedicated RO's as CRO's are aready dedicated so additional expense is 12,600 / 200 shooters = 63.00 each,
Less than 1 night in a hotel, if you are there 1 less day it's a wash.
Most ranges capable of holding the Nationals only have 5 or 6 pits, so 1 CRO and 2 RO = 18 RO,s
120 / 2 ( 2 per room) x 5 nts = 300.00 for hotel
50 /day for meals x 5 days = 250.00 for meals
even if 500 was allowed for travel total is $1050 / RO
Note that we are only adding 12 dedicated RO's as CRO's are aready dedicated so additional expense is 12,600 / 200 shooters = 63.00 each,
Less than 1 night in a hotel, if you are there 1 less day it's a wash.
Walter Hornby said:
Barrie had 7...
It's not just the number of ranges...it's the number of stages...
Easy one
If you have a range with 2 long courses...you need:
CRO
2 RO's
2 score keepers
Not so easy one
If you have a range with 1 long course, 1 med and 3 speed shoots...the number of RO will depend on how you spit up the squads...but my guess is 2 RO's and 2 Score keepers would not be enough
Regarding patching your own squad...that's not all sunshine and roses...
What usually happens when you patch your own squad is the...ahem..."patchers" are more interested in looking at the targets than patching anything. They spend more time getting another look...that slows things down...and it interferes with the on deck shooter. They should do a "patch audit" at the end of the day...
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Well then have the CRO's really crack down on the shooters sneeking in another look. The opposite is true aswell, look at all the trouble caused on last years "no shoot hell memory stage" when the shooters would jump on the stage while the workers were patching the other stages in the same area.
Make the Nationals fee 250-300 and for go the shooter gift, I'm there to shoot a large match not to get another range bag or what not. If there is any product donated to the match by a sponsor raffel it off to the work staff only.
Make the Nationals fee 250-300 and for go the shooter gift, I'm there to shoot a large match not to get another range bag or what not. If there is any product donated to the match by a sponsor raffel it off to the work staff only.
I don't think you can assume two range officials per room for hotel either. Some of the earlier talk was people bringing their families with them, I think I'd rather sleep with my wife than you guys Rooming with another guy while working the match isn't a whole lot of incentive.
Based upon some history that has now been posted it doesn't look like my math is all that wrong. The point about competitors not having to be there for as long and as a result spending less on their own hotel is a good one though, that could indeed make it a wash when you add on the extra $$ for range officials. However, it doesn't change the fact that if this is something to consider then I would hope the powers that be would look at the previous 5 Nationals (for example) and calculate how many range officials on average were required. That would give all of us a real good idea of how much the cost would be, right now we're just SWAG'ing (Semi-Wild A$$ Guessing) or in my case WAGing (Wild A$$ Guessing).
Oh, one other potential problem - how would the host know how much to charge until they know where the match officials are coming from? You'd almost have to have the match officials signed up and their travel/hotel booked before you could figure out how much to charge each competitor (unless any shortfall comes from IPSC Canada and any extra goes to IPSC Canada).
Rooming with another guy while working the match isn't a whole lot of incentive.Based upon some history that has now been posted it doesn't look like my math is all that wrong. The point about competitors not having to be there for as long and as a result spending less on their own hotel is a good one though, that could indeed make it a wash when you add on the extra $$ for range officials. However, it doesn't change the fact that if this is something to consider then I would hope the powers that be would look at the previous 5 Nationals (for example) and calculate how many range officials on average were required. That would give all of us a real good idea of how much the cost would be, right now we're just SWAG'ing (Semi-Wild A$$ Guessing) or in my case WAGing (Wild A$$ Guessing).
Oh, one other potential problem - how would the host know how much to charge until they know where the match officials are coming from? You'd almost have to have the match officials signed up and their travel/hotel booked before you could figure out how much to charge each competitor (unless any shortfall comes from IPSC Canada and any extra goes to IPSC Canada).
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stormbringer
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- S.W. Ontario
Well I have a different idea that might have merrit.
How about getting a local volunteer group to help with the patching?
It worked out pretty good at last Septembers Drama Daze match so good that I am going to do it again.
Most volunteer groups could be had for a few thousand dollars in donations schools being the logical group to talk to.
At the EESA match we had about 20 students out to help. True some helped more than others but all in all they were pretty good.
It also would garner some positive PR to the host club and the sport to be giving the money to the group.
How about getting a local volunteer group to help with the patching?
It worked out pretty good at last Septembers Drama Daze match so good that I am going to do it again.
Most volunteer groups could be had for a few thousand dollars in donations schools being the logical group to talk to.
At the EESA match we had about 20 students out to help. True some helped more than others but all in all they were pretty good.
It also would garner some positive PR to the host club and the sport to be giving the money to the group.
Regarding RO's required
Generally there are 2 or 3 stages per pit, typically only 1 stage can be shot at a time...so you need 1 RO and 1 score keeper and 1 CRO to watch over and occasionally fill in when the RO'S who usually alternate between ROing and scorekeeping.
A 15 stage nationals would then require between 12 to 16 ROs and 5 to 8 CROs depending on the # of separate pits. More than 18 stages usually results in 6 good stages and 12 stages of filler, round count uppers.
For example the US nats gets by with 1 RO and 1 scorekeeper fo small to mid stages, where 2 or 3 small stage are in 1 pit there will be 2 RO and 1 scorekeeper, larger stages will have 2 RO, 1 scorekeeper and 1 CRO...but they put through 500 shooters through 18 stages in 3 days, cost for the match is $275 US.
We will only have 200 shooters or so, the point is we can do it here in Canada if we want to.
Generally there are 2 or 3 stages per pit, typically only 1 stage can be shot at a time...so you need 1 RO and 1 score keeper and 1 CRO to watch over and occasionally fill in when the RO'S who usually alternate between ROing and scorekeeping.
A 15 stage nationals would then require between 12 to 16 ROs and 5 to 8 CROs depending on the # of separate pits. More than 18 stages usually results in 6 good stages and 12 stages of filler, round count uppers.
For example the US nats gets by with 1 RO and 1 scorekeeper fo small to mid stages, where 2 or 3 small stage are in 1 pit there will be 2 RO and 1 scorekeeper, larger stages will have 2 RO, 1 scorekeeper and 1 CRO...but they put through 500 shooters through 18 stages in 3 days, cost for the match is $275 US.
We will only have 200 shooters or so, the point is we can do it here in Canada if we want to.
if we started working on this for next years Nationals, it could be done I bet. Storms idea of local groups for patching has merit. Talk to local reserve units and such. We had army guys at WS in Ecuador.
as for staying with your family, I think if an RO wanted to bring his whole family while he worked a match, then he'd be paying for their hotel room and airfare obviously. He might get a per diem for his room and airfare but that's it. IPSC should only have to pay for the RO, not his support team.
as for staying with your family, I think if an RO wanted to bring his whole family while he worked a match, then he'd be paying for their hotel room and airfare obviously. He might get a per diem for his room and airfare but that's it. IPSC should only have to pay for the RO, not his support team.
