why are the .35's not more popular?

[Doug]

I have a few comments here. The first is about trolls. It seems to me that for the last while, perhaps the last year, one of the posters on this thread has done little but go onto other people's threads and disturb s**t. In the past two days I have seen his insulting and completely irrelevant comments on three different threads. He evidently does not like BIGREDD, and most of these comments I have seen are personal attacks on him.

It seems to me that persons who have strongly-held opinions, like BIGREDD surely does, should be able to take debate square on the chin from those who do not share the opinions. But personal attacks which have nothing to do with the thread are just the signs of a troll. I for one am sick and tired of seeing these NON-GUN-RELATED posts. I think some posters need to think about what their contribution should be to this forum. If people just want to be trolls, well maybe the mods should acquaint them with the penalty box for a bit.

And if somebody is not aware that the Model 94 Big Bore guns include the .356, well maybe that person really does not know a heck of a lot about guns and would be better off in a read-only mode here on Gun Nutz.

This is an interesting thread except for the insults. The original question is why the .35s are not more popular. Most respondents talk of their experience with this calibre, in a host of chamberings, and so it is evident that the .35 is indeed popular with many folks, especially the gun enthusiasts who make up a lot of the membership here. I would be one of them, and the only mainstream .35s that are on my "not yet" list are the .356 Win and the .358 Norma Mag. But one day!!!

But to answer the question posed by the author of this thread, I think this is simply a question of supply and demand. In this country there are millions of rifles, pick a number it does not matter, let's say for argument's sake there are 5 million non-restricted rifles. Of that number probably the majority are hunting rifles, even though many hunting rifles never actually get a chance to go hunting! Of the thousands of cartridges for which those rifles are chambered, I would bet long odds that the majority are the popular .30 calibres including .30-06, .30-30, .308 Win and .303 British. So only a fraction of the guns in Canada are in the various .35 cals. Most guys buy used guns, and most used guns are not in a .35 cal chambering. So it is supply-side mathematics that tells you why there are not more folks shooting the .35 cals.

And why are there not more .35 cal rifles? Others have pointed out a bunch of reasons but again the driver is supply and demand, in this case demand. If there HAD been sustained demand over the years for the various .35 cal offerings, then more rifles would have been sold in those chamberings. For whatever reasons at the time, whether it be poor marketing, negative press, poor performance, scarcity of ammo, etc etc, none of the .35s made a huge inroad into the collective hearts and minds of Canadian (and American) gun hunters and gun enthusiasts. For example, Remington brought out the family of rimless centre-fire cartridges .25, .30, .32 and .35 Rem - only the latter was particularly successful, but most guys kept their trusty old .30-30s...

And THAT is my opinion, yours may certainly vary.

Doug

 

[SuperCub]

It seems to me that persons who have strongly-held opinions, like BIGREDD surely does, should be able to take debate square on the chin from those who do not share the opinions. But personal attacks which have nothing to do with the thread are just the signs of a troll. I for one am sick and tired of seeing these NON-GUN-RELATED posts.

I agree with your comments to a point, but these debates with BR usually turn into a negative spectacle given his ABSOLUTE refusal to be anything but ABSOLUTELY right. Everyone else in the debate is either, "special", "stupid", "unexperienced", "delusional" or flat out liers, and have no valid points to offer. If these are not personal attacks, what are? He braggs about never being wrong or never losing a debate and any other source of information other than his is wrong. This sort of attitude will draw a crowd every time!

Debate is in itself confrontational, without compomise. A conversation is entirely different, with there being respect going both ways and some regard for the other's opinion with the attitude that it may be correct.

I choose, for the most part, not to be drawn into these matches too deeply, but to make fun of the whole deal with non-gun related jokes and comments. I don't take him (or myself, for that matter) that seriously.

I have no axe to gring with BR at all and have defended him in the past (by PM). I look forward to meeting him and lot of other folks on CGN some day in the future .......... I'm serious!

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[BIGREDD]

I agree with your comments to a point, but these debates with BR usually turn into a negative spectacle given his ABSOLUTE refusal to be anything but ABSOLUTELY right. Everyone else in the debate is either, "special", "stupid", "unexperienced", "delusional" or flat out liers, and have no valid points to offer. If these are not personal attacks, what are? He braggs about never being wrong or never losing a debate and any other source of information other than his is wrong. This sort of attitude will draw a crowd every time!

Debate is in itself confrontational, without compomise. A conversation is entirely different, with there being respect going both ways and some regard for the other's opinion with the attitude that it may be correct.

I choose, for the most part, not to be drawn into these matches too deeply, but to make fun of the whole deal with non-gun related jokes and comments. I don't take him (or myself, for that matter) that seriously.

I have no axe to gring with BR at all and have defended him in the past (by PM). I look forward to meeting him and lot of other folks on CGN some day in the future .......... I'm serious!

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I think it's great that you don't take yourself too seriously Super... because given your track record in debates that attitude will serve you well.


It is OK to have a strong opinion and everyone is entitled to such. Opinions based on facts and well argued always carry more weight and will win more debates.
I have no respect for members who resort to name calling and stupid or useless humour to slag a member with an opinion that he can defend using his intellect and word power alone. Invariably those with limited comprehension and no imagination will resort to name calling and I revel in drawing these reprobates out. For the record I never draw first blood... but I can flame as good or better than anyone and stay within the rules of the board while defending myself. The fact that I refuse to back down has undoubtedly created some animosity... tough potatoes... you wanna play, I'll play.
My opinion is that my detractors here are only those with the limited capacity to carry a debate based solely on their experience and intellect.

 

[SuperCub]

I love you, BIGREDD .............

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[Doug]

That's beautiful, SuperCub!

Doug

 

[MadDog]

Please make the ranges open soon, please make the ranges open soon, please make the ranges open soon, ple.......................


Whats going on this month, you guys been locked up to much this winter?

I've given out 5 warnings this week already, actually the first 5 I've ever given out in my life.........darn I hate spring.

 

[SuperCub]

Please make the ranges open soon, please make the ranges open soon, please make the ranges open soon, ple.......................

You're right!! The winter has been long and I have about five rifles to get loads worked up for, including a 35Whelen (35cal being the point of this thread).


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[Doug]

"my name is MadDog and..........


......I'm serious."

Good theory Joe.

I have to go out to the garage and get the .350 Rem Mag brass out of the tumbler so I can load some of that... thanks for the lead to return form hijack territory, SC!

Doug

 

[MadDog]

I actually just got my stock in for my model 170 in 35 Rem, the one my buddy fell out of the tree with last deer season, just waiting on a fair priced trigger guard and I'll have it all back together and out to the range again.

 

[ratherbefishin]

I originally posed the question ''why are the 35's not more popular'' after reading the statistics on efficiency and hearing the various comments about actual hunting experiance on larger game-mainly from the 35 whelen of which the 350 mag seems to be the short magnum offshoot.I am well aware the 35's seem to fall in between the shorter range big bore's[45-70,444, etc] and the smaller sub 30 caliber long range calibers-and the 35's seem to fall in between-not the faster long range smaller calibers-but offering better range than the big bores-but still retaining the knock down capabilities required for moose/bear and accomplishing this task without huge recoil.So-all thatbeing so-one wonders why the 35's aren't the weapon of choice for the average moose hunter who is in bear country?

 

[SuperCub]

why the 35's aren't the weapon of choice for the average moose hunter who is in bear country?

Because the 30cals are far more popular with Mr. Average Hunter who is a non-reloader. The 35cals just never got enough exposure.



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[Rick]

So-all thatbeing so-one wonders why the 35's aren't the weapon of choice for the average moose hunter who is in bear country?

I would mention that I think there are .35's out there that are superior for even the "deer size only" hunter who will never shoot beyond 300 yards, and they certainly should be at the top of the list for weapon of choice for any hunter who hunts anything bigger in North America. Given that those hunters want to shoot more than half a box of ammunition or so through their rifles every year and don't mind spending a few hours in front of a reloading press. But that's another story...

Doug and others (including my previous post, I think) have already covered a lot of the ground as to why the .35's aren't on most hunters' radar screen. So it comes down to a "many reasons, all cumulative) effect.

There is also the effect of people recommending what THEY have when somebody asks "what should I get" (ever seen that type of thread on the internet?) of their friends, on the 'net, etc. Not too many guys are going to say "I bought and use ### caliber, and it is crap, or yyyy caliber would have been better I think". They validate their choices, even if unconsciously, by saying you need to get what they have. So that builds the popularity of calibers.

Then there is the Kiss Of Death from gunwriters (as opposed to The Godlike Blessing). There's a few calibers that have been done in by that - calibers which are the ballistic equivilent of other chamberings that are very popular indeed.

Then there is the Demotion from gunwriters. Speaking of the .35's, how often have you read that the .358 Winchester is "a good bush caliber". That is certainly news to anyone handloading 180/200 grain spitzer bullets (although I recognize the factory ammunition didn't do nearly as well), but to Joe Average who thinks he wants a little more reach than a "brush gun", the .358 just got crossed off the list.

You move from that to "everybody knows" knowledge that just floats around out there in the hunting community. I have lost track of the number of guys who have told me I was crazy to start my wife out with a .358 Winchester and have her shooting a rifle that beats her up like that. There's other issues in that, such as making sure the rifle properly fit her in the first place (often the biggest problem for women and kids) and the fact she started out shooting 125 gr. swaged lead bullets bought in bulk. But if you look at the powder charges to move a 180 grain bullet out of a .358 at the same velocities a 180 grain bullet would leave a 30/06, it doesn't take long to figure out that a .358 takes much less powder to move bullets in the 150 - 225 grain class at the same velocities than you could do it in smaller calibers. That is expansion ratio working for you, and it can result in significantly less recoil when rifle weight, bullet weight, and muzzle velocity remain the same.

Nevertheless, 35's get a reputation as "hard kickers". They certainly can deliver moderately heavy recoil when you go to lighter rifles and the heavier bullets - but a featherweight 30/06 driving 225 grain bullets can be a very nasty proposition as well. However, most people shooting a .358 caliber rifle for the first time that isn't really light and driving heavy bullets as fast as possible are genuinely surprised at how the recoil really isn't much different and possibly even lighter than some of the 7mm's and 30's. Doesn't coincide with what they "know" about .35 caliber rifles.

Ammunition can be an annoyance to get for the person who doesn't reload - probably already mentioned, and certainly an example of Doug's comments regarding supply and demand. When everyone tells a prospective buyer he is going to have a hard time finding ammunition for his .35 at the local store, and he checks that out and finds it is so, what are the chances that will make up his mind right there?

Anyways, for the discerning hunter/shooter, there will be .35's of assorted persuasions available until long after the hunters who are alive today have gone to the other side of the grass. For which many of us will be thankful. I invariably recommend the .358 Winchester/35 Whelen to anyone looking for a new hunting rifle - but I also tell them why I recommend that caliber and the inherent advantages AND that they'll have to reload to be able to hunt gophers with it all summer, get those advantages, etc. Then I tell them choice #2 - which is usually a .308 Winchester for Joe Average. A bewildering array of ammunition everywhere, chambered in just about every rifle you see, and unlikely that anyone will tell them it is a hard kicker.

I know that if we suppose they act on what they hear from me alone, 90% of them are going to buy a .308 anyways. That's fine - my mission in life is not to convert everyone to .35's, and for many hunters a rifle really is only a tool. I like to think they'll shoot it regularly both for practice and for the sheer fun of it, but most won't. And for most hunters like that, .35's are simply too inconvenient compared to a .30 caliber. They're hunters, not hunter/shooters wanting everything they can get out of their rifle.

Anyways, I have a closet full of .35's, a loading bench held down by thousands of .358 pistol bullets bought in bulk, the selection of .358 premium hunting bullets has never been better, and so life is good...

 

[ratherbefishin]

well,I'm thinking of getting a 350 magnum in rugers allweather model-I would get it in the heavier laminated stock, but unfortionately, they don't offer it in that.I would likely choose a 35 whelen, but they don't offer it in either.Anything I've been able to read tells me the 35 is the most efficient caliber for hunting-delivering good knock down power for moose or bear.Funny-some calibers [ie.65x55] seem to be better hunting calibers than the statistics might indicate [I have taken black bear and many deer with my swede-nothing went farther than 20 or 30 yards at the most]

 

[Rick]

well,I'm thinking of getting a 350 magnum in rugers allweather model-I would get it in the heavier laminated stock, but unfortionately, they don't offer it in that.

Buying a used rifle and rebarrelling/rechambering it is an often overlooked means to an end.

When you add the cost of the rebarrelling and bluing to the cost of purchasing the used rifle, it usually ends up costing a bit more than an out-of-the-box new rifle. However, after the gunsmith has finished his magic, the rifle should look like new, unless you picked one with a stock that looked like it was used to drive tent pegs. You also have the advantage of a custom barrel with a chamber cut just the way you want it, action and locking lugs trued up, etc.

Spread over a lifetime of use, I think the difference in cost when rebarrelling to precisely what ***I*** want in my rifles is chump change. Probably half the hunting rifles in my safe are not wearing the barrels they left the factory with, and half of them were rifles I picked up because they were the action, length, and bolt face I was looking for and the wood was in good enough shape that TLC made it good as new again. Works for me.

There's a guy on one of the other threads who wants to sell a 350 Remington; you should talk to him before somebody snatches that one up - they go pretty fast.