Why would a EE seller ask for "scan of PAL and drivers to complete sale"

blaxsun said:
Hey, you're preaching to the choir here...
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I know....I was reinforcing your point :)

Superbrad said:
Hey That's AWESOME!.... now you have someone running around with a scan of your PAL that he can use to buy guns off the EE with!...Sweet!....

Man... you guys just don't get it.....
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Why the f**k would his buyer use the PAL scan to buy more guns? It'd be FAR less risky and more profitable to just sell the scans....THEN the bad guy can just buy the guns he wants ;)
 
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Wrong Way said:
Exactly....and THAT is PRECISELY why the LAW was written SPECIFICALLY saying the seller is NOT REQUIRED to.

Holy hell....do guys here make sure the guy who bought their used car has a license to drive it? Or do the get it that if you sell a car and the buyer is unlicensed the BUYER is the one breaking the law.
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I don't know what you plan to do when it comes time to verify whether an individual is legally licensed to receive the unrestricted firearm you are selling him/her. I will be phoning the CFC with the PAL number and will conclude my interaction with "I will be shipping an unrestricted gun to ###### address. If this is in error now is the time to tell me."

Now you may ship an unrestricted firearm with less verification but I'd hate to be in the person's shoes who ends up selling a firearm to an individual not licensed to possess it who then goes on a killing spree and suicide. A bit of good old fashioned police work will soon reveal the seller and may the gods help that person if he/she didn't carry out any due diligence. You'll be the Canadian equivalent of George Zimmerman.

So before y'all get high on your bravado and dissin' people's concerns, think not only of the legal consequences but the moral consequences of your actions. I don't give a rat's ass about the LGR but I would find it hard to live with myself if I ended up selling a firearm to someone who wasn't licensed to own it and went on to do evil things with it.
 
Superbrad said:
Hey That's AWESOME!.... now you have someone running around with a scan of your PAL that he can use to buy guns off the EE with!...Sweet!....

Man... you guys just don't get it.....
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Same with providing your name, PAL# and DOB without a scan. People can use those to buy guns off the EE too.

The best solution I've heard so far is sending scans of your PAL and DL with the numbers obscured. Compared the pictures, DOB, check PA expiry and ship to the address on the DL. You won't have the numbers of either if you are up to no good and there's no need to bother the nice ladies at the CFC.
 
Prior to C19 if I wanted to buy a restricted or non-restricted I provided the seller with my PAL#, my name, and phone number that's it. The fact that I even provided my address was for the purpose of shipping. Now that I have more freedom why would I be expected to provide a scan of my PAL, DL, fingerprint, blood type and semen sample?

I will not give out more information or jump through more hoops now that I have more freedom. Did I provide a scan of my PAL for non-restricted prior to C19? No. Well then why would I post C19?
 
Norincodude...^^^^please answer my car question.

Could you "live with yourself" if you sold him the car and he drive unlicensed and killed himself?

Once people start to "get" that a gun is just another tool things will get better....but I'm afraid many have been brainwashed into the belief that guns are inherintley dangerous....yet knives, cars, even chainsaws are sold without a second thought (for the record..all three of the above have hurt me seriously, but I've never been shot....)
 
Norincodude said:
So before y'all get high on your bravado and dissin' people's concerns, think not only of the legal consequences but the moral consequences of your actions. I don't give a rat's ass about the LGR but I would find it hard to live with myself if I ended up selling a firearm to someone who wasn't licensed to own it and went on to do evil things with it.
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It's not a requirement to verify the PAL. How exactly do you do this for a FTF transaction anyway? Not only do the RCMP specifically state validation is for businesses only, but the CFC has verified on more than one occasion that there is no legal requirement for individuals to do so (although they obviously appreciate it).

Sorry, you're not going to sway me with the "evil" morality argument. Mistakes and bad things happen to licensed firearms owners, too. If you're finding this too much of a moral dilemma, perhaps you should find another hobby...
 
Wrong Way said:
^^^^please answer my car question.

Could you "live with yourself" if you sold him the car and he drive unlicensed and killed himself?

Once people start to "get" that a gun is just another tool things will get better....but I'm afraid many have been brainwashed into the belief that guns are inherintley dangerous....yet knives, cars, even chainsaws are sold without a second thought (for the record..all three of the above have hurt me seriously, but I've never been shot....)
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In the case of a car there is a level of due diligence. It usually ends with the buyer coming back with a license plate after the sale and he drives away. To get that plate he will have to have a driver's permit and insurance. That's where due diligence begins and ends. If I sell a firearm to a properly licensed individual and he ends up killing someone, it won't feel good but when the police investigate hopefully they will conclude I followed due diligence with respect to a firearm. At that point, the State, who continues to allow a disturbed individual to retain a PAL, is responsible. There are some here who argue that they needn't even call the CFC to verify the validity of a license. This is where I suggest they will end up in a world of hurt.

Notwithstanding that you and I agree that a firearm is a tool - for the 90% of Canadians out there who either fear guns or are indifferent to them, if you use the tool argument, especially after a spectacular shooting incident, you will be the one looking like a tool.

What I have been trying to say for a while now is there may be some serious unintended consequences of the negative sort if we don't analyze and work this thing out thoughtfully at this juncture. I think there are some good ideas, bad ideas and really bad ideas floating around. Without resorting to bravado and name calling, let's get some legal advice and starting working out the details.
 
Norincodude said:
What I have been trying to say for a while now is there may be some serious unintended consequences of the negative sort if we don't analyze and work this thing out thoughtfully at this juncture. I think there are some good ideas, bad ideas and really bad ideas floating around. Without resorting to bravado and name calling, let's get some legal advice and starting working out the details.
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I think there's more fear, mongering and fear mongering going on than anything else. You're not exactly doing anything to allay anyone's fears either, by throwing around things like "criminal" and "civil" liabilities...
 
Norincodude said:
If I sell a firearm to a properly licensed individual and he ends up killing someone, it won't feel good but when the police investigate hopefully they will conclude I followed due diligence with respect to a firearm. At that point, the State, who continues to allow a disturbed individual to retain a PAL, is responsible.
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So then a system that was known to be flawed in the first place, lose records, and even have datebase crashes and restoring said database place the record of registration to the previous owner is supposed to keep on file that you confirmed a PAL for a non-restricted from now until the end of time? There was a reason that you kept the transfer papers on non-restricted, it was in case of error at Miramichi.

So in your example, how would a person be expected to prove due dilligence in case of loss of confirmation call or human error at Miramichi?

This can go round and round.
 
A: what colour is the sky in your world? "the buyer comes back with a plate, and to get that plate he'll have to have a drivers lic"....seriously?? You actually believe that? 'Cause my 9 yr old could bring you a plate....or do you mean that you call the MTO to make sure the plate the buyer has is legit? No? Why not? You seem to think its a neccessity to do exactly the same thing with a gun.

B: I dont give a #### about the others....we tried that approach. IT DIDN'T WORK. Want to know what WORKS? An "in your face, don't back down, to hell with you of you don't agree with me" approach.

It worked for Blacks
It worked for ###s
It will work for us.

Holy hell, if the blacks took your "don't wanna rock the boat" approach we'd still have special water fountains and designated seating at the back of the bus.

We MUST seize every ounce of freedom we manage to claw back from the government. If people don't like it? #### em....er...."We're HERE! we own GUNS! Get used to it!"

Norincodude said:
In the case of a car there is a level of due diligence. It usually ends with the buyer coming back with a license plate after the sale and he drives away. To get that plate he will have to have a driver's permit and insurance. That's where due diligence begins and ends. If I sell a firearm to a properly licensed individual and he ends up killing someone, it won't feel good but when the police investigate hopefully they will conclude I followed due diligence with respect to a firearm. At that point, the State, who continues to allow a disturbed individual to retain a PAL is responsible. There are some here who argue that they needn't even call the CFC to verify the validity of a license. This is where I suggest they will end up in a world of hurt.

Notwithstanding that you and I agree that a firearm is a tool - for the 90% of Canadians out there who either fear guns or are indifferent to them, if you use the tool argument, especially after a spectacular shooting incident, you will be the one looking like a tool.

What I have been trying to say for a while now is there may be some serious unintended consequences of the negative sort if we don't analyze and work this thing out thoughtfully at this juncture. I think there are some good ideas, bad ideas and really bad ideas floating around. Without resorting to bravado and name calling, let's get some legal advice and starting working out the details.
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Superbrad said:
Hey That's AWESOME!.... now you have someone running around with a scan of your PAL that he can use to buy guns off the EE with!...Sweet!....

Man... you guys just don't get it.....
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And I had his info to do the same thing Whether it was a scan or just the typed info needed to verify with CFC. You guys are just like the American slaves that were freed after the Civil War. You want to go running back to the same Masters that had you chained before because you have no idea what to do with your freedom.
 
loki_81 said:
So then a system that was known to be flawed in the first place, lose records, and even have datebase crashes and restoring said database place the record of registration to the previous owner is supposed to keep on file that you confirmed a PAL for a non-restricted from now until the end of time? There was a reason that you kept the transfer papers on non-restricted, it was in case of error at Miramichi.

So in your example, how would a person be expected to prove due dilligence in case of loss of confirmation call or human error at Miramichi?

This can go round and round.
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I agree it can go around and around. But this is more than just doing what is legal. Our enemies are looking for a fvckup and sure enough some rocket scientist from our community will hand it to them. I would like to minimize that possibility. If it means using the CFC folks to act as brokers and verify PALs, that may be the due diligence we all should follow. They may not keep a recording of the conversation but I can.
 
Norincodude said:
I agree it can go around and around. But this is more than just doing what is legal. Our enemies are looking for a fvckup and sure enough some rocket scientist from our community will hand it to them. I would like to minimize that possibility. If it means using the CFC folks to act as brokers and verify PALs, that may be the due diligence we all should follow. They may not keep a recording of the conversation but I can.
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Do us ALL a favour....stop trying to babysit us and "prevent" anything.
The people you are attempting to sway have infinitely more experience than you do....holy crap, the CFC themselves have confirmed multiple times that you are wrong.

Seriously man...let it go. You aren't accomplishing anything, and you CERTAINLY arent helping.
 
Wrong Way said:
A: what colour is the sky in your world? "the buyer comes back with a plate, and to get that plate he'll have to have a drivers lic"....seriously?? You actually believe that? 'Cause my 9 yr old could bring you a plate....or do you mean that you call the MTO to make sure the plate the buyer has is legit? No? Why not? You seem to think its a neccessity to do exactly the same thing with a gun.

B: I dont give a s**t about the others....we tried that approach. IT DIDN'T WORK. Want to know what WORKS? An "in your face, don't back down, to hell with you of you don't agree with me" approach.

It worked for Blacks
It worked for ###s
It will work for us.

Holy hell, if the blacks took your "don't wanna rock the boat" approach we'd still have special water fountains and designated seating at the back of the bus.

We MUST seize every ounce of freedom we manage to claw back from the government. If people don't like it? f**k em....er...."We're HERE! we own GUNS! Get used to it!"
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Hey, whatever works for you brother.

I've said my piece.

I'll stop arguing. Arguing with people on the Internet is like winning a gold medal at the Special Olympics....... you're still retarded.:D
 
Norincodude said:
I agree it can go around and around. But this is more than just doing what is legal. Our enemies are looking for a fvckup and sure enough some rocket scientist from our community will hand it to them. I would like to minimize that possibility. If it means using the CFC folks to act as brokers and verify PALs, that may be the due diligence we all should follow. They may not keep a recording of the conversation but I can.
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Our enemies... you know, I'm starting to have more respect for our enemies. For starters, at least I know where they stand (they want all our firearms taken away), they know a victory when they see it (C-17, C-68) and they realize a loss when it's staring them in the face (C-19).

Maybe you're quite content to "go back into the closet" or play it safe. I say we've suffered a huge injustice for going on close to 2 decades now. This doesn't mean we're going to flaunt the law, and where discretion is the better part of valour the majority of us will err on the side of caution. That being said, regardless of what we do in the post-LGR world: bad things are still going to happen.
 
Norincodude said:
I don't know what you plan to do when it comes time to verify whether an individual is legally licensed to receive the unrestricted firearm you are selling him/her. I will be phoning the CFC with the PAL number and will conclude my interaction with "I will be shipping an unrestricted gun to ###### address. If this is in error now is the time to tell me."

Now you may ship an unrestricted firearm with less verification but I'd hate to be in the person's shoes who ends up selling a firearm to an individual not licensed to possess it who then goes on a killing spree and suicide. A bit of good old fashioned police work will soon reveal the seller and may the gods help that person if he/she didn't carry out any due diligence. You'll be the Canadian equivalent of George Zimmerman.

So before y'all get high on your bravado and dissin' people's concerns, think not only of the legal consequences but the moral consequences of your actions. I don't give a rat's ass about the LGR but I would find it hard to live with myself if I ended up selling a firearm to someone who wasn't licensed to own it and went on to do evil things with it.
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What drama. Now you're invoking the name of George Zimmerman. :rolleyes:

It's quite clear you don't have the stomach to enjoy your new found, or to be precise, restored freedom as a Canadian gunowner. Do your sales in person or at a store and your problem is solved. But save us your moral indignation and your hysteria.

By the way how do you store your guns? To legal minimums or do you go further? How much further? Someone might steal them and think of the moral consequences then.

Some people are too nervous and afraid to even own guns. They too are found of overstating the risks based on largely imaginary and irrational fears. Perhaps you might rethink whether the risk to you of being a gunowner is too high.
 
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