Wolf Experience on Vanc Isle - Lesson

I'm certainly not scared of wolves in the wild. I think wolves don't start become a danger to humans until they get habituated to humans and/or they are running out of food. Of course, I'm not sure that me (full grown man) not being scared of wolves means that parents should feel comfortable letting wolves get close to their children.

I will shoot at any wolf I see though, as long as he season is open, which it is most of the year, through mos of BC.
 
Superbrad said:
That is a coywolf at best.... also known as a red wolf....

red_wolf.jpg
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As mentioned in a previous post, I'm in Manitoba. We don't have "coywolves" or "coydogs". Compared to eastern varieties, our coyotes are smaller and wolves larger and the fur is far better, for anyone that cares. ;)
 
Over 300 people have been killed by domestic dogs in the U.S. between 1979 and the late 1990s (Humane Society of the U.S., reported in Tracking and the Art of Seeing, Paul Rezendes, second edition, 1999, p. 194). This means that your family dog or your neighbor's dog is ten times more likely to kill you than a mountain lion and hundreds of time more likely than a coyote attack.
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...I guess I need an ATC to go for a walk to the store. Are we serious about this wolf threat frenzy? Some folks really need to just get outdoors and stop planning for doom...
 
Ardent said:
You have a very valid point bear, I came from farming (chickens, then small scale beef) and have to admit have shot scores of pigeons and crows over years to stop disease. Shot my share of yotes at our later operation so I have small familiarity with your concerns, nowhere near your scale.

I see you and other farmers and ranchers as having a much more legitimate plight, a lot of guys in this thread the closest they've come to ranching and wolves is watching movies. And yet a bunch of guys who have no livestock are pushing an ignorant shoot on sight mentality even in open woods where the Wolves live and the weekend warrior hunters seem to think they are lord. Wolves are incredibly important apex predators and for probably 99.9% of Canadians pose zero issues, you are in the fractional percentage that has a legitimate concern, to be sure.
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Absolutely correct. I just get a little defensive against those who consider wolves as some sort of "special" predator which should be left to roam and kill as they wish, but condemn every other predator.
I'm in no way concerned or scared of wolves attacking me.
I've also been around wounded and healthy black bears quite often. They don't scare me anymore than wolves, though I think I may be alone in that regard considering the weekly "bear defense" threads on this site. :)
Grizzlies on the other hand get my full respect and attention.

Ardent said:
bearkilr knows his animals better than most, he says it's a young female it's a young female, Grey Wolf. I'm used to Timbers up here, anything old enough to be on its own can be bigger than coastal Blacktail deer. Same species the two, canis lupus, but fair size difference it seems.
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Our wolves are the same as yours in Alberta ,Ardent, no difference. Grey and Timber is the same, Arctic and Eastern are subspecies. Largest I've seen was a local trapper in the 80's caught one that was 190 lbs., weighed at local DNR. What a brute!!! Last year in November I opened the stomach up on one and it had 12.5 lbs of deer meat in it, including a large chunk of shoulder blade. Pretty neat, good thing their stomach acids dissolve bone, otherwise that'd be a painful morning dump. :D
 
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bearkilr said:
As mentioned in a previous post, I'm in Manitoba. We don't have "coywolves" or "coydogs". Compared to eastern varieties, our coyotes are smaller and wolves larger and the fur is far better, for anyone that cares. ;)
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Little brush wolves and red wolves aren't wolves... they are coyotes.... lol.... wolves in Manitoba are heavier?.... maybe southern Manitoba vs. southern Ontario.... maybe.... but up north we are hunting the same wolves... here is one taken at the lodge I go to.......

gallery_wolf3.jpg


And don't kid yourself... where there are wolves and coyotes there are coywolves.... Manitoba doesn't have some magic dust that keeps them from interbreeding like they do everywhere else....
 
Superbrad said:
Little brush wolves and red wolves aren't wolves... they are coyotes.... lol.... wolves in Manitoba are heavier?.... maybe southern Manitoba vs. southern Ontario.... maybe.... but up north we are hunting the same wolves... here is one taken at the lodge I go to.......


And don't kid yourself... where there are wolves and coyotes there are coywolves.... Manitoba doesn't have some magic dust that keeps them from interbreeding like they do everywhere else....
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Well Dr. Superbrad,you seem to have all the answers. Again,had you read my entire posts, you'd have come to the realization that this was a young female, probably born in the spring of 2010. As with every species, the young are generally smaller than adults. I wasn't aware of the fact that the wolves up at "The Lodge" throw litters of pups exceeding 100 lbs at birth, perhaps you should be contacting some biologists for further examination of this unique phenomenon. Also, it's common knowledge that our wolves don't screw coyotes, they eat them.

May I suggest you read up a bit on wolves and coyotes, especially the former and current range of the red wolf and what is currently referred to as a "coywolf","coydog" and their range. Google is your friend.

Lastly, and this is not boasting, I've probably shot/trapped more wolves than you've seen and therefore am done arguing this. Have a nice day and don't forget to pack your "shottie" for defense. :)
 
bearkilr said:
Well Dr. Superbrad,you seem to have all the answers. Again,had you read my entire posts, you'd have come to the realization that this was a young female, probably born in the spring of 2010. As with every species, the young are generally smaller than adults. I wasn't aware of the fact that the wolves up at "The Lodge" throw litters of pups exceeding 100 lbs at birth, perhaps you should be contacting some biologists for further examination of this unique phenomenon. Also, it's common knowledge that our wolves don't screw coyotes, they eat them.

May I suggest you read up a bit on wolves and coyotes, especially the former and current range of the red wolf and what is currently referred to as a "coywolf","coydog" and their range. Google is your friend.

Lastly, and this is not boasting, I've probably shot/trapped more wolves than you've seen and therefore am done arguing this. Have a nice day and don't forget to pack your "shottie" for defense. :)
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I know exactly what a wolf looks like.... just because I now live in Ontario doesn't mean it is the only place I have ever been / lived in my life... I was in the forces for 8 years and have been stationed all over canada... including BC and alberta.... believe me, I know how to defend myself and do not need a "shottie" whatever the hell that is....

I do know something else... I know better than to post a pic of a 70 pound coywolf I shot in the arse on the internet and tell everyone that it is a wolf....
 
Ol' Smokey said:
Could government stats be inaccurate? Yes.

Is it likely that there is a conspiracy to fudge numbers to protect a pet project? No. The livestock owners are organized, and can do a tally themselves, so fabrications could easily be exposed.

You neighbor may well have lost 20 calves to wolves - but I wonder how firm the evidence is that they were wolf kills and not coyote kills ........

In your neighbor's case, the wolves need to be controlled.

Apparently the finding in the US is that most wolf kills are repeat kills from single individuals or small groups that have learned to take livestock. Once those individuals are eliminated, the problem goes away.

Livestock killing is rare enough that biologists consider it an aberrant behavior for a timber wolf.
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My neighbour isn't the only one who's lost cattle to wolves, it's an ongoing problem in my area with many ranchers. Some years are worse than others. They are afforded compensation through a government program, but only if it can be determined,without a reasonable doubt, that predators have killed the animal. Naturally, as with any governemnt aid program, they aren't always eager to compensate, so the evidence needs to be there. Winter is pretty much the only time this can be ascertained, as most ranchers here have their cattle on large tracts of land during spring,summer and fall (1000's of acres) and they generally don't find enough remains in time to do an "autopsy". Add to this scavenging birds and maggots, and the cause of death is unidentifiable within a matter of a couple of days. Winter brings snow, and tracks will show the struggle of the prey and also what killed it.

You're correct in stating that livestock is strange to wolves and it takes them some time to come to the realization that they're edible. The problem arises, when they do realize it, they will prey on nothing but the livestock due to the relatively little effort they take to kill in comparison to wild animals. These wolves can be trapped/snared, but rarely do even the most prudent and able trappers get the whole pack. Strychnine and cyanide used to be very effective and worked astonishingly well, I've seen 8 dead wolves laying within 100 yards of a "seasoned" cow. However, I don't believe any government agency is permitted to use poison anymore.

Another interesting story is the release of Wood bison in an area of Manitoba. Government biologits believed it would take about 8-10 years for wolves to begin preying on them, and they were correct. Last I heard, the number of bison had plummeted dramatically. An interesting aspect of wolf behaviour, as the bison are pretty much livestock in their eyes.

Coyotes do take their toll and I've actually witnessed 3 taking down a yearling heifer calf some time ago, though I belive this to be a rare occurrence. The fact remains though that they are not nearly as destructive to large livestock as wolves.

.........but now back to the wolf defense thread. I'll be alternating between my Rem 7615, Ruger 220 Swift and soon to be in my hands customized Kimber in 6.5x47 Lapua. :D
 
Superbrad said:
Little brush wolves and red wolves aren't wolves... they are coyotes.... lol.... wolves in Manitoba are heavier?.... maybe southern Manitoba vs. southern Ontario.... maybe.... but up north we are hunting the same wolves... here is one taken at the lodge I go to.......

gallery_wolf3.jpg


And don't kid yourself... where there are wolves and coyotes there are coywolves.... Manitoba doesn't have some magic dust that keeps them from interbreeding like they do everywhere else....
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Actually red wolves are wolves, as found in the Algonquin park area

"Common Name Eastern Wolf
Scientific Name Canis lycaon
Other Names Eastern Canadian Wolf, Algonquin Wolf

General Appearance: The Eastern Wolf is a member of the dog family, like the other species of wolves found in North America. The Eastern Wolf is conspecific (belonging to the same species) with the Red Wolf (presently recognized as Canis rufus), a species that was extirpated from the wild in the southeastern United States. Although once part of the same continuum of wolves, land-clearing and direct exploitation by people following European colonization resulted in a large gap between the few remaining Red (Eastern) wolves in the southeastern United States and the larger population in central Ontario and southern Quebec. The Red Wolf is slowly being re-introduced into the wild in areas like Alligator River National Wildlife Refuge in North Carolina. Eastern Wolves (and therefore Red Wolves) are very small in size compared to the Gray Wolf (Canis lupus) living in the boreal forest north of Lake Superior in Ontario. Unlike the Gray Wolf, the Eastern Wolf in Algonquin Park has never been recorded with an all-black or all-white coat. Instead the Eastern Wolf typically has a reddish-brown muzzle; reddish-brown behind the ears and on the lower legs; with a black, white, and gray back. Most people lucky enough to catch a quick glimpse of an Eastern Wolf in the wild for the first time are surprised by the animal's small size (only about 60 to 68 centimetres at the shoulder). People from more southern areas dominated by agriculture often believe that they have seen a Coyote (Canis latrans) in Algonquin Park. Coyotes are generally absent from Algonquin Park, since wolves will regularly kill any trespasser into their territory and Coyotes have a difficult time finding food in completely forested environments. However, wildlife biologists do know that Coyotes have on occasion bred with wolves here in Algonquin Park. Although this was likely more common when the land was cleared by loggers in the late 1800s and early 1900s, some coyote genetic material continues to find its way into some Eastern Wolf packs along the Park's borders. "

http://www.sbaa.ca/projects.asp?cn=314

There is a huge range of sizes for wolves depending on species and population.

In south or central Ontario, I believe you are unlikely to see anything the size of big western Timber wolves.

Given the small size of our wolves, and confirmed genetic mixing between wolves and coyotes, it can be very difficult to tell the difference between coyotes and wolves, without a detailed examination or a DNA test!
 
bearkilr said:
My neighbour isn't the only one who's lost cattle to wolves, it's an ongoing problem in my area with many ranchers. Some years are worse than others. They are afforded compensation through a government program, but only if it can be determined,without a reasonable doubt, that predators have killed the animal. Naturally, as with any governemnt aid program, they aren't always eager to compensate, so the evidence needs to be there. Winter is pretty much the only time this can be ascertained, as most ranchers here have their cattle on large tracts of land during spring,summer and fall (1000's of acres) and they generally don't find enough remains in time to do an "autopsy". Add to this scavenging birds and maggots, and the cause of death is unidentifiable within a matter of a couple of days. Winter brings snow, and tracks will show the struggle of the prey and also what killed it.

You're correct in stating that livestock is strange to wolves and it takes them some time to come to the realization that they're edible. The problem arises, when they do realize it, they will prey on nothing but the livestock due to the relatively little effort they take to kill in comparison to wild animals. These wolves can be trapped/snared, but rarely do even the most prudent and able trappers get the whole pack. Strychnine and cyanide used to be very effective and worked astonishingly well, I've seen 8 dead wolves laying within 100 yards of a "seasoned" cow. However, I don't believe any government agency is permitted to use poison anymore.

Another interesting story is the release of Wood bison in an area of Manitoba. Government biologits believed it would take about 8-10 years for wolves to begin preying on them, and they were correct. Last I heard, the number of bison had plummeted dramatically. An interesting aspect of wolf behaviour, as the bison are pretty much livestock in their eyes.

Coyotes do take their toll and I've actually witnessed 3 taking down a yearling heifer calf some time ago, though I belive this to be a rare occurrence. The fact remains though that they are not nearly as destructive to large livestock as wolves.

.........but now back to the wolf defense thread. I'll be alternating between my Rem 7615, Ruger 220 Swift and soon to be in my hands customized Kimber in 6.5x47 Lapua. :D
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I don't disagree with any of your post.

There need to be controls of wolves that do significant damage to livestock, and predation must be compensated for. Realistically, though, livestock are generally lost in greater numbers to disease, adverse weather, other predations etc., so the losses need to be put in perspective.

Coyotes AFAIK generally take small livestock (calves, lambs, etc.) but rarely larger individuals. I did hear an unconfirmed report of a yearling draft horse being taken in southern Ontario.

As someone who will be keeping a small flock of sheep, I will be doing my best to prevent predation. In my case, that means proper fencing to keep out coyotes and a companion animal for protection (possibly a llama or donkey). Local sheep owners who take these steps very rarely have losses to coyotes.

Likewise, there are many things that ranchers can do to reduce losses, including prompt removal of dead stock.

Here is an interesting article on the subject.

http://digitalcommons.unl.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1546&context=icwdm_usdanwrc&sei-redir=1&referer=http%3A%2F%2Fscholar.google.ca%2Fscholar_url%3Fhl%3Den%26q%3Dhttp%3A%2F%2Fdigitalcommons.unl.edu%2Fcgi%2Fviewcontent.cgi%253Farticle%253D1546%2526context%253Dicwdm_usdanwrc%26sa%3DX%26scisig%3DAAGBfm0yb9f8PSne8QUknH0k7OpveaE66w%26oi%3Dscholarr#search=%22http%3A%2F%2Fdigitalcommons.unl.edu%2Fcgi%2Fviewcontent.cgi%3Farticle%3D1546%26context%3Dicwdm_usdanwrc%22

It should also be noted that some of the conflict in the US is happening on public land leased by ranchers. I personally wonder why public land is being utilized in a way that undermines wildlife policy.
 
Ol' Smokey said:
It should also be noted that some of the conflict in the US is happening on public land leased by ranchers. I personally wonder why public land is being utilized in a way that undermines wildlife policy.
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Do you?

Myself I wonder why "wildlife policy" is being used in a way that undermines long-standing business relationships and activity.

the ranking federal official over the Wolf Program told my brother once at a forest service office in Gardiner that “The wolves are here to stay. It doesn’t matter if they eat every damn last Elk. Live with it.”
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Mike Phillips currently a member of the Montana State Legislature, is also simultaneously employed as Executive Director of Ted Turner’s Endangered Species Fund. In that capacity on February 24, 2000, in Duluth, MN, at a conference on wolf introduction, Phillips said to a group of 600 people, in his summary : “The goal of wolf introduction is to drive 30,000 ranchers from public lands.” Despite being videotaped by the University of Minnesota and the International Wolf Center, and reported by the “Minnesota Star Tribune”, and “Wyoming Agricultural”, Phillips recognizing the PR damage of these words, later denied having made them.
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Read more: http://www.skinnymoose.com/bbb/2010...-introduction-into-yellowstone/#ixzz1fsC4tj51

Now, who would want to get ranchers off public lands and why?
 
RRCo. said:
Do you?

Myself I wonder why "wildlife policy" is being used in a way that undermines long-standing business relationships and activity.





Read more: http://www.skinnymoose.com/bbb/2010...-introduction-into-yellowstone/#ixzz1fsC4tj51

Now, who would want to get ranchers off public lands and why?
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Easy answer - they are public lands, belonging to the entire citizenry of the United States.

The BLM is essentially subsidizing the ranchers' operations, while denying the public use of public lands.

Given that "natural areas" (like national parks) are tiny little disconnected tracts of land, it makes a lot of sense to rehabilitate public land and re-naturalize it, for the benefit of everyone.

For several species, their long term success depends on free movement over larger areas. Restoration of ecosystems and undoing a small amount of the massive environmental destruction of the past couple of centuries is a worthy thing in the eyes of most.

That's why, for example, dams are being decommissioned and rivers allowed to flow freely, to re-establish natural environments for fish and many other species.

Honestly, why do some folks think that every square inch needs to be plowed, grazed, drilled, drained or paved?
 
Ol' Smokey said:
Easy answer - they are public lands, belonging to the entire citizenry of the United States.

The BLM is essentially subsidizing the ranchers' operations, while denying the public use of public lands.

Given that "natural areas" (like national parks) are tiny little disconnected tracts of land, it makes a lot of sense to rehabilitate public land and re-naturalize it, for the benefit of everyone.

For several species, their long term success depends on free movement over larger areas. Restoration of ecosystems and undoing a small amount of the massive environmental destruction of the past couple of centuries is a worthy thing in the eyes of most.

That's why, for example, dams are being decommissioned and rivers allowed to flow freely, to re-establish natural environments for fish and many other species.

Honestly, why do some folks think that every square inch needs to be plowed, grazed, drilled, drained or paved?
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A bit of irony coming from someone living in Kawartha Lakes,no? ;)
 
Hey folks... Been doing some research on wolves the last few days... I made an honest mistake based on breed... I apologize to bearklr for that... Its a real hodge podge out therte and I spent a lot of time researching my own haunts and thought it reapplied... It doesn't... My bad... While I still maintain yotes anmd wolves interbreed in bear's back yard... I can't make a definitive statement saying what he shot and displayed is not a wolf of some sort... My bad ....
 
Superbrad said:
Hey folks... Been doing some research on wolves the last few days... I made an honest mistake based on breed... I apologize to bearklr for that... Its a real hodge podge out therte and I spent a lot of time researching my own haunts and thought it reapplied... It doesn't... My bad... While I still maintain yotes anmd wolves interbreed in bear's back yard... I can't make a definitive statement saying what he shot and displayed is not a wolf of some sort... My bad ....
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Good of ya. Cause it's a wolf, bear's the 'real deal'. :)
 
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