Xcr vs ACR

[cr5]

So it took a Gen 3 of the pmags or you had to file your mags to fix this issue with many rifles... wow.. you wouldn't expect that from a huge company like magpul
Point being people love baggin RA and to some extent it's well earned with some of the issues...
When people say that they are the only company guilty of this... well....

Rob Arms gets bagged on a lot because there are lot's of threads started on the site with guys showing pics of broken parts before they even get through break-in, or at least before 1000 rounds.
At least Wolverine is providing phenomenal support so you don't need to worry about it getting fixed but to me there are just too many reports of problems.

 

[jonythebeast]

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[cr5]

How old are those threads? 2-3 years old? I have yet to hear about a significant problem in the newer designs, until you can point me to a number of threads, I am afraid your claims don't hold water.

I don't care enough to try to search for a bunch of threads to prove to to you that there seems to be a new thread every week or two with another guy having problems with their rifle.

I used to get the same type of responses from guys that owned Swiss Arms rifles when I would state my experience with the one I had. The rifle didn't live up to the hype and while it was well built it was no more accurate than any other black rifle I've owned. I sold it within 6 months to buy my second SL8-4 which would out-shoot any semi auto out there other than an AR with a quality barrel. I have yet to find a load for my ACR that will shoot moa but I have a few that will do 1.5moa and I'm sure I'll find something better in the loads I have waiting for testing.

Don't get all defensive just because you own an XCR, I've owned almost every non restricted black rifle out there and those I haven't I've had the chance to spend time with at the range with buddies that own one. The XCR is a good rifle but it has a few flaws I can't get past or I would own one. The ACR is the closest I've seen to an all around great rifle that can be non restricted.

If you can find legitimate flaws with the ACR I'm more than willing to hear about it, I may defend it with some facts based on my rifle and when I get on my laptop next I can post some pics of it hanging from a luggage scale showing they aren't as heavy as you've read on the net. The problem with most of the non restricted conversions is that people are fooled into thinking you need a fat heavy barrel to make a rifle accurate. It's the same thing with the XCR pre keymod model. If you've ever taken a regular XCR and mounted the lightweight factory barrel it turns it into a completely new rifle and it shoots the same groups as that silly heavy barrel.
Accuracy comes from the quality of the barrel, rifling, and chamber not simply a heavy contour.
The reason the XCR can't make consistent groups is the barrel retention which is terrible when you want consistent accuracy. When Rob Arms comes up with a new system for mounting the barrel and tightens up the QC they will have a great rifle, until then they will only have a good rifle.

 

[jonythebeast]

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[cr5]

Don't own one, some of my buddies do. So I don't have a dog in this fight, but I will say that I hear a lot of #####in and moaning from a handful of very loud customers, from what I have learned from first hand experience from buddies rifles and doing some research it seems that earlier models had problems and they are pretty squared away now adays. If you can prove me wrong, I'd be glad to hear it. As I said other wise its just hearsay and conjecture.

A few "why is it doing this" or "is this normal" threads, first legitimate post showing another case of poor QC is on page 4 http://www.canadiangunnutz.com/forum/showthread.php/1065921-XCR-keymod-barrel-tilted-to-the-right
I can't be bothered to keep going back further. Look for yourself if you don't believe me. The threads are scattered back through the pages as far as you want to look.

 

[yohann160]

Wasn't there a thread yesterday about an XCR with a crooked barrel from factory? Get your head out of the sand, guy.

 

[jonythebeast]

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[cr5]

Fair enough, my buddies said they have never had a problem. And I am sure people only start a thread when there is a problem, if you look online there are tens of thousands of ar-15 problem threads. Of course there are so many ar's out there, and people don't make a thread when things are going smooth. I don't formulate an opinion based on what somebody posted either, unless they are reputable ie) John Farnam not the CGN user ntm

Almost all AR threads with problems are Norinco AR's and AR's people put together themselves who have no idea what they are doing or have no understanding of what it means to balance the gas system with the recoil system and take a 16 inch rifle and put a 10 inch barrel on without changing any other parts.
Do that and there is a good chance you will have issues.
My 12 inch PWS AR has over 4000 rounds through it without a failure that wasn't caused by improperly seating the mag. No other problems at all. No parts replaced, no special lubes, just regular cleaning and gun oil.

So you say you don't formulate an opinion based on what others post but admit you don't own an XCR yet you seem to have a pretty strong opinion of them based on what your friend or couple friends say about them. ??? How many thousand rounds do they have through their XCR's?

 

[jonythebeast]

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[CobraGT]

Own both. Both have been reliable (except for the need for a bit of Loctite on the recent-production XCR), both have similar features. I agree that the barrel retention system in the ACR is better, as is the stock. Prefer the safety and the bolt release on the XCR. Can't really compare accuracy, as they are different calibers and different barrel lengths, but both seem reasonably consistent out to 100, which is where I do most of my shooting. I'm not a bench rest shooter, so...

 

[RickR1100]

So it took a Gen 3 of the pmags or you had to file your mags to fix this issue with many rifles... wow.. you wouldn't expect that from a huge company like magpul

Really?

Ok, let's go into more detail.

Injection moulds, though made of high quality steels and doing plastic products...do wear out after many hundreds of thousands of parts made. Eventually they have to be replaced. Usually at these points, minor improvements are introduced.

The Tavor with Magpul magazines combo was brand new when Canuck civies started using them a few years ago. A few competitors noticed the problem. Then they noticed on forums the mags had the same exact problem in the FN SCAR Light. Their solution was to use a file for a minute. Same works for the SCAR and Tavor.

Magpul, seeing the need for compatibility with rifles other than AR15's, knew US specops were wanting to use the SCAR, and they bought an example to design the new mags. They could not have forseen the issue with Tavor because NONE were available in the USA at that time. Yet they still managed to make the new generation work great in the SCAR and Tavor.

Point being people love baggin RA and to some extent it's well earned with some of the issues...
When people say that they are the only company guilty of this... well....

Sure...but there are a few differences: Magpul identified a product issue, and corrected it very fast. Robinson...eh...not sure.

 

[ntm]

read this off the acr forum


http://www.acrforum.com/forum/acr-technical-discussion/543-accuracy-input-please-2.html

Just saying do your own research and be comfortable with your own decisions
You could find good and bad about every rifle
google problems with tavor and magpul... some people say that can damage it

A moot point, the barrel gets replaced in the nr conversion. My factory barrel was in the 1.5 moa range.

Unfortunately I dont own an ACR and my trigger time behind one hasn't been there either. Although I have gotton to fire the ACR several times at the range and I'm not debating it's not an excellent carbine. I believe the the XCR like any carbine has had it's hick-up along the way and the ACR is certainly not exempt. This debate kind of really makes me want to add one to my collection....(wife groans in the background) I can appreciate everything that your saying for sure. Sub moa consistenly? Just curious ranged distance and rounds used and amount?

75 grain hornady bthp, 22.6 grains of n140, ivi brass and Winchester primers. 100 yards, five round groups, 400 rounds of that particular load through so far. Accuracy has far exceeded my expectations.
I'm testing some similar loads with lapua brass and cci br primers today actually

I am curious as I have not put in a couple hours at a time on an ACR. A really good friend of mine puts his NR ACR through the paces and he says that a frustrating part of the stock is that it doesn't continue to function smoothly if it doesn't remain clean. He also mentioned that the pistol grip on the ACR which to my knowledge is unchangable is unnatural in it's feel. Curious not only to you but any other ACR owners are you finding these problems or maybe more accurately simple complaints?

Never had a problem with the folder binding up. The grip is smaller around, and at a more vertical angle than some. I don't hate it, but being able to swap it out certainly would have been nice. Perhaps my only beef with the rifle.

Don't own one

Fair enough, my buddies said they have never had a problem. And I am sure people only start a thread when there is a problem, if you look online there are tens of thousands of ar-15 problem threads. Of course there are so many ar's out there, and people don't make a thread when things are going smooth. I don't formulate an opinion based on what somebody posted either, unless they are reputable ie) John Farnam not the CGN user ntm

Yes, well John Farnam rarely shoots past 100 yards with his 7.62x39 xcr. As a purely defensive weapon it's fine. He's likely never picked up an acr or used one where accuracy mattered.
And by that silly logic, the ar is better, as there are a metric #### ton more professional trainers running it than xcr's...

 

[yohann160]

My reloads are 55gr FMJBT @ 25gr H335 and the Herron 18.5'' stainless steel barrel on the ACR printed 1 MOA.

 

[SnoPac]

If the XCR was priced a bit more modestly, it wouldn't take near the amount of heat it does. That being said, if an AR is better than both the ACR and the XCR the argument could be made that the ACR is an even bigger waste of money for an upside that is only relative to each individual's intended use for the weapon. In Canada, I'm guessing the XCR outsells the ACR 10 to 1 so by default there's more hype/heat directed towards it. There's plenty of awful reviews on the ACR too if you look through youtube. Wait for it now....."I've run 5000 rounds through my ACR and it's been flawless!" AND....back to square 1....

 

[cr5]

I am curious as I have not put in a couple hours at a time on an ACR. A really good friend of mine puts his NR ACR through the paces and he says that a frustrating part of the stock is that it doesn't continue to function smoothly if it doesn't remain clean. He also mentioned that the pistol grip on the ACR which to my knowledge is unchangable is unnatural in it's feel. Curious not only to you but any other ACR owners are you finding these problems or maybe more accurately simple complaints?

I'm not sure why your friend needs to adjust his LOP regularly. I find a comfortable position on mine that gives good eye relief for my optic and leave it there. Comparing to my buddy's XCR-M the ACR stock is much better than the FAST, he constantly shows me how easy it is to have the stock unlock and fold when you shoulder it and give it a wiggle.
As for the grip, it feels like a Magpul MOE grip. I do wish it was replaceable though as I would love to put on an MOE+.

 

[superlative]

Try better ammo. If you're running Norinco switching will shrink your groups. My buddy had last gen before keymod and was shooting Norinco making 6 inch groups and I let him try my 55gr dirtybird and the groups shrunk to 4 inch at 100yds. He was fairly new to shooting at the time and could probably do better now. He's a convert though, ditched the XCR and now has ACR.

I would be more than willing to take you to the range if you are ever in the Edmonton area Mon-Fri with some free time on one of my days off or to bring my ACR down to Calgary one of the times I come down to visit the wife's sisters so she can visit her new nephew.

I think you will be surprised how nice an ACR handles with a light weight non restricted barrel. I'd also like a chance to try the new keymod XCR.

Offer out to anyone in the area, my only conditions are that you have to have something interesting for me to try and my rifles will never see Norinco or MFS crap ammo so don't bring any. Other than that you're free to run as much ammo through it as you want (within reason). I'll also throw the 6.8SPC and the 300BLACKOUT barrel in for you to try a few rounds.

I don't think this needs to be a p!ssing match, better if we just go shooting and have some fun. I'm definitely no run and gun master, most of my shooting is off the bench doing load development on one of my 4 223's or for my other rifles.

I was using 55gr dirty bird too, so it looks like I'm getting the same accuracy as your buddy. I'll be in Edmonton for the IPSC matches in June, but I'll be there with my family so any non-IPSC time will probably have to be dedicated to them. I agree that the ACR seems to be a better rifle, but for me it's a cost issue for what I'm going to use it for. The XCR is my run and gun rifle. For any sort of gopher/coyote hunting, I'll be using my 223 Xbolt. I might buy the ACR in a few years time, but for now I need to cut back with all the guns I have and I can't justify the ACR. I wanted a rifle that could replace the VZ58 7.62x39 I sold, and in that regard, the XCR is the perfect choice. If I bought an NR ACR, I would be trading up, not making an equal swap (equal because of how much I spent on upgrading my VZ).

I think of my XCR as a fun, casual gun. $2850 is just too much to spend on this type of gun. The ACR seems like a "serious" gun to me, and my "serious" gun is a Tavor. I needed the fun gun to be usable by anybody - kids, women, etc. - so weight, cost, balance and ergonomics were the key requirements.

Using a car analogy:
VZ58: Toyota Corolla
XCR: Honda Civic
ACR: BMW 328
Swiss Arms: Mercedes C63 AMG

I needed a Civic!

 

[superlative]

I have no dog in this debate, I don't own either of these products. But...XCR has been out for many years, not adopted by any military or paramilitary unit AFAIK. And if low-mileage civilian hobbyists are complaining about the occasional parts breakages, this does not inspire confidence for a new buyer.

The ACR is new. So new, that its track record, and reputation are not old enough to be sure if it can truly be trusted. But at least a small sample of units are being field tested by specops operators...no idea what they think of them though. And one country has adopted it for a small number of designated marksmen (which becomes the Canadian Non Restricted variant due to longer barrel from factory). But...both are such small numbers as to not really be any further ahead than the XCR.

Contrast those against the decade of urban warfare seen by Tavor users in Israel, Lebanon ops, and routine patrols in disputed territories. Its proven itself massively. No its no accuracy machine, but it is proven for very harsh conditions, very high mileage, handy for vehicle and CQB urban. Adopted by India special forces, Guatemalan Navy special forces, now produced by Taurus under license for use by Brazilian special forces, Colombian special forces army and police, Azerbaijan specops, Georgian army bought 20,000 units, Thailand bought 58,000 units, Ukraine was about to start manufacturing setup for Tavors in 5.45 cartridge though I'm sure that's in limbo now Putin is seizing the country...oh and Vietnam is also buying Tavors for specops marines and navy. Anyway, with only a decade on the market, the Tavor is being used by quite a lot of military units, speops units, around the world.

We could then look at the two decades for the Swiss Arms, in use by an awful lot of specops hostage rescue teams. And several armies.

I agree with you on this. The Tavor is priced cheaper than a NR ACR conversion, and at that price, the Tavor alone is worth it to me because of its client list. If either the XCR or ACR had extensive field use, this conversation might be a lot different.

Although it's nice to have a super accurate rifle, for what I'll actually use these rifles for, I simply don't see a need. It's a want issue. I see those super-accurate bull barrel bolt action rifles, and I'm just not interested; I'd rather buy a pencil thin barreled lightweight hunting rifle that's slightly less accurate.

 

[cr5]

I was using 55gr dirty bird too, so it looks like I'm getting the same accuracy as your buddy. I'll be in Edmonton for the IPSC matches in June, but I'll be there with my family so any non-IPSC time will probably have to be dedicated to them. I agree that the ACR seems to be a better rifle, but for me it's a cost issue for what I'm going to use it for. The XCR is my run and gun rifle. For any sort of gopher/coyote hunting, I'll be using my 223 Xbolt. I might buy the ACR in a few years time, but for now I need to cut back with all the guns I have and I can't justify the ACR. I wanted a rifle that could replace the VZ58 7.62x39 I sold, and in that regard, the XCR is the perfect choice. If I bought an NR ACR, I would be trading up, not making an equal swap (equal because of how much I spent on upgrading my VZ).

I think of my XCR as a fun, casual gun. $2850 is just too much to spend on this type of gun. The ACR seems like a "serious" gun to me, and my "serious" gun is a Tavor. I needed the fun gun to be usable by anybody - kids, women, etc. - so weight, cost, balance and ergonomics were the key requirements.

Using a car analogy:
VZ58: Toyota Corolla
XCR: Honda Civic
ACR: BMW 328
Swiss Arms: Mercedes C63 AMG

I needed a Civic!

Knock the Swiss Arms down to something lower end Mercedes and I agree, mine was well built but it's performance didn't impress me. It's definitely no AMG.

Well let me know if you can get away from the family for a few hours or if your matches are at Genesee, I may come out and watch.
I'm also in Calgary regularly so shooting on your turf may be easier, I usually bring a rifle and go shooting with Suputin when I'm there anyway.

 

[SnoPac]

Using a car analogy:
VZ58: Toyota Corolla
XCR: Honda Civic
ACR: BMW 328
Swiss Arms: Mercedes C63 AMG

Haha, that's awesome. In the grand scheme of things and as a fairly avid car enthusiast I'd have to put it more like this:

XCR: BMW 328
ACR: BMW 335

 

[00aught]

But at least a small sample of units are being field tested by specops operators...no idea what they think of them though. And one country has adopted it for a small number of designated marksmen (which becomes the Canadian Non Restricted variant due to longer barrel from factory). But...both are such small numbers as to not really be any further ahead than the XCR.

Sorry but this is wrong,
No military or "specops operators" are using the bushmaster acr. If they are using an acr is the Remington acr which has a different lower, better forend and full auto. We are getting a non restricted acr because bushmaster released a dmr acr. Not because it's being used by an army.