2015 - My Black Rifle shoots sub-MOA groups all day long challenge! Revised Rules!
- Thread starter Trinimon
- Start date
3 months and only two making the grade, all I can say is WOW I'd thought there would be many more capable and up to proving it too.
Well I can't complain because I haven't tried the challenge (yet), but I will say congrats to those who have succeeded and to those that were close with 4 out of 5.
Cheers D
Well I can't complain because I haven't tried the challenge (yet), but I will say congrats to those who have succeeded and to those that were close with 4 out of 5.
Cheers D
Or maybe people can't be bothered with the challenge?
I've been to the range a couple of times since these threads have come out for some practice and while I have some targets printed off in my range bag, this challenge was pretty low on my list of stuff I wanted to accomplish.
I don't think the low turnout of participation is necessarily indicative of rifles/shooters capable of doing it...
In our (black rifle owners') defense, I think that there just aren't as many precision shooters in the black rifle pool as there are in the bolt action/single shot crowd. I know that when I was active in local varmint matches, I was the only black rifle shooter--ever!
Travis Bickle
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Upper Lower Middle Alberta
Maybe I'm just a s**t shot there, but I have never been able to produce Sub MOA out of any currently Canadian available black rifle that is available to the common civilian.
I've owned many. The closest I came was with my M14 Norinco at 100 meters (techincally a battle rifle I guess). About an inch and a half, 5 shots with match loads and irons. ONCE.
AR180b nope, numerous AR15's including two built with highest quality parts and DD barrel nope, T97 nope, XCR nope, Kel Tec nope.
Also now that I actually own an XCR I'm going to go out on a limb at the same time and call 100% unfiltered bull s**t on anyone claiming Sub MOA accuracy with one!
I could maybe believe it with a very high end "black rifle" ala SR20, Modern Hunter but those are custom tuned competition guns more than a true mass produced black rifle per se and I still haven't personally seen it yet.
I've owned many. The closest I came was with my M14 Norinco at 100 meters (techincally a battle rifle I guess). About an inch and a half, 5 shots with match loads and irons. ONCE.
AR180b nope, numerous AR15's including two built with highest quality parts and DD barrel nope, T97 nope, XCR nope, Kel Tec nope.
Also now that I actually own an XCR I'm going to go out on a limb at the same time and call 100% unfiltered bull s**t on anyone claiming Sub MOA accuracy with one!
I could maybe believe it with a very high end "black rifle" ala SR20, Modern Hunter but those are custom tuned competition guns more than a true mass produced black rifle per se and I still haven't personally seen it yet.
redshooter
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Central Ontario
Factory or reloads? If it's factory ammo your odds drop considerably.
Travis Bickle
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Upper Lower Middle Alberta
Factory Match grade. I'll spend the little extra when I get a brand new rifle just to see what it can really do with top quality ammo so I can set a good base.
I don't know, like I said, I've owned and shot many a semi auto black rifle on civilian gun ranges and out in the bush and have yet to come across anything in the general pool of the rifles available that would even come close to "Sub MOA". Never done it myself and never seen it from anyone else.
^^ I wonder if your accuracy observations on Black rifles could also apply to generic hunting/varmint rifles? i.e. I recall some bolt action Remington (I think) accuracy specs that were (frankly) underwhelming. The factory acceptance spec was like 2 moa--of course most did well under that, but only with tailored handloads or with a factory load that was really favored by the rifle did they do moa or better.
With my mid level AR's, I'm getting 1.75-3.0 moa with factory FMJ's, but match/hand loads are remarkably better. Even HP hunting/varmnint rounds frequently are half the group sizes of the FMJ stuff.
With my mid level AR's, I'm getting 1.75-3.0 moa with factory FMJ's, but match/hand loads are remarkably better. Even HP hunting/varmnint rounds frequently are half the group sizes of the FMJ stuff.
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Ouch, that cuts deep. But I'm actually mesmerized mine shoots as well as it does after what other people experience, that is to say when I do my part. I've been weighing my options at either picking up a 1:7 barrel to better shoot some heavier rounds or even just jumping up into an M so really stretch out in range, but I'm worried I got a unicorn of an XCR and I shouldn't mess with my luck. A year or so more and the waiting time for a MH should drop substantially.
redshooter
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Central Ontario
Factory can be good, but handloads tweaked to a specific rifle can make a middle of the road rifle shoot like one twice it's price. I had a S&W M&P 15 Sport that could consistently put 5-6 shots out of a 10 shot group in under 3/4". I'll concede the overall groups were about 2 MOA, but I'm a ####ty shot and the scope was a 1.75-6X42 Tasco. It also could have been flaws in my reloads and feeding from the mag that caused the group to open up.
Here's an example...
If I recall you mostly shoot Irons, I'll bet if you had a load refined for your rifle and put 10X + scope on it your groups would shrink considerably.
Well I do agree that there are likely many here on CGN capable of MOA groups with their Black Rifles (even #5 x #5Rd. MOA groups on the same page), however was thinking there would be more members on here wanting to prove they and their rifle have the right stuff and are capable of shooting MOA (like some had claimed).
Just expected the challenge would appeal to more shooters, but perhaps it's harder to do then most realize being #5 x #5Round. individual groups instead of just one smaller group.
Also regarding Redshooter's post above, I do believe many shooters would benefit from adding a higher power optic to their set-up. I'm hoping to give it a go in August using a 4x-16x power scope since my eyes aren't what they once were.
Cheers D
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live4therut
CGN frequent flyer
I thought the turn out would be larger as well, I've been wanting to do this since it came out unfortunately my shooting time has been limited to my 50 yrd indoor range when I can the spare the little free time I have, which has been nil. I have several rifles I believe could be capable of this challenge and a couple m25's that I know can do the m14 challenge. But finding the time has been near impossible with work and family commitments. I have three days off towards the end of July that I'll commit to getting at least three rifles through this challenge.
ill give it a go with my acr, but i dont reload so i need to get some zmax or vmaz ammo for it, it also only has a 4x acog.
i might be able to get 3 groups at very close to 1 moa. 4 or 5 now that depends on my abilities more than the rifle.
mildcustom2
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Surrey, B.C.
Awfully quiet in here........
I may give this challenge a try with my new to me Department of National Defence prototype AR10 ( Walther Lother 24" SS 1:11.25 twist, tripple lapped barrel with ceramic coating ) topped with Nightforce ATACR. Tailored load of varget pushing 168grn SMK's
I may give this challenge a try with my new to me Department of National Defence prototype AR10 ( Walther Lother 24" SS 1:11.25 twist, tripple lapped barrel with ceramic coating ) topped with Nightforce ATACR. Tailored load of varget pushing 168grn SMK's
Awfully quiet in here........
I may give this challenge a try with my new to me Department of National Defence prototype AR10 ( Walther Lother 24" SS 1:11.25 twist, tripple lapped barrel with ceramic coating ) topped with Nightforce ATACR. Tailored load of varget pushing 168grn SMK's
Well that's a very capable and sweet looking rifle you have there Mildcustom2.
Best of luck with your attempt, however I feel it will be difficult to blame your equipment if you do not meet with success.
Cheers D
mildcustom2
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Surrey, B.C.
Well that's a very capable and sweet looking rifle you have there Mildcustom2.
Best of luck with your attempt, however I feel it will be difficult to blame your equipment if you do not meet with success.
Cheers D
Thanx........if it doesn't work out for me I will just poke holes with a No2 HB like some people do.
Awfully quiet in here........
I may give this challenge a try with my new to me Department of National Defence prototype AR10 ( Walther Lother 24" SS 1:11.25 twist, tripple lapped barrel with ceramic coating ) topped with Nightforce ATACR. Tailored load of varget pushing 168grn SMK's
WOW! That's one sweet looking rifle. Looking forward to the submission.
I need to build some more 155gr 300BLK rounds to try this with my NR ACR. I've shot plenty of sub moa groups with it but to actually do it 25 rounds in a row will be very difficult.
To those of you caught up in the ATRS MH frenzy thinking they are some magical sub moa rifle I would think again. I've shot 3 of them and all three had reliability issues, and one was regularly piercing primers with factory ammo. None of them would shoot consistently close to 1 moa with factory or handloads. All three of the owners were a little disappointed and expected more. The one that the owner had handloads for did admit that the loads were not developed for the rifle so there probably is more potential there but his rifle was shooting around 1.5 moa with FGMM.
The rifle still has some bugs to work out. The biggest problem so far that I've seen is that they won't feed soft point projectiles reliably, not unexpected in a semi auto but a little bit of a pain when shooting a rifle with hunter in it's name. They were more reliable with polymer tip and FMJ but still less reliable than my AR-10 was. The fact the gen 1 rifles won't feed from gen 3 pmags is a pain in the arse as well since gen 2 mags are getting hard to find. Another issue is the side charger handle doesn't stay locked forward during firing, all three rifles would have the charge handle floating around after last shot on lockback. I mentioned this to Rick and hopefully the second or third run rifles will have this corrected.
That being said it is a beautiful rifle and I really like what Rick has done to remove the rear takedown pin. I would consider owning one but not for $4000-$5000 and not until they correct the issues.
Good luck to everyone attempting this challenge, I'm looking forward to seeing more pics of targets from people who give it a try.
To those of you caught up in the ATRS MH frenzy thinking they are some magical sub moa rifle I would think again. I've shot 3 of them and all three had reliability issues, and one was regularly piercing primers with factory ammo. None of them would shoot consistently close to 1 moa with factory or handloads. All three of the owners were a little disappointed and expected more. The one that the owner had handloads for did admit that the loads were not developed for the rifle so there probably is more potential there but his rifle was shooting around 1.5 moa with FGMM.
The rifle still has some bugs to work out. The biggest problem so far that I've seen is that they won't feed soft point projectiles reliably, not unexpected in a semi auto but a little bit of a pain when shooting a rifle with hunter in it's name. They were more reliable with polymer tip and FMJ but still less reliable than my AR-10 was. The fact the gen 1 rifles won't feed from gen 3 pmags is a pain in the arse as well since gen 2 mags are getting hard to find. Another issue is the side charger handle doesn't stay locked forward during firing, all three rifles would have the charge handle floating around after last shot on lockback. I mentioned this to Rick and hopefully the second or third run rifles will have this corrected.
That being said it is a beautiful rifle and I really like what Rick has done to remove the rear takedown pin. I would consider owning one but not for $4000-$5000 and not until they correct the issues.
Good luck to everyone attempting this challenge, I'm looking forward to seeing more pics of targets from people who give it a try.
