2015 - My Black Rifle shoots sub-MOA groups all day long challenge! Revised Rules!
- Thread starter Trinimon
- Start date
Load development with 69gr SMK's.. 16" Criterion chrome lined barrel
Target 1 & 2 - 24.4gr W748, Targets 3,4,5 23.1 H4895 with different neck tensions.
1 - .887, 2 - .685, 3 - .785. 4 - .928, 5 - 1.011 Squares are actually .900" (printing error..)
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Target 1 & 2 - 24.4gr W748, Targets 3,4,5 23.1 H4895 with different neck tensions.
1 - .887, 2 - .685, 3 - .785. 4 - .928, 5 - 1.011 Squares are actually .900" (printing error..)
Load development with 69gr SMK's.. 16" Criterion chrome lined barrel
Target 1 & 2 - 24.4gr W748, Targets 3,4,5 23.1 H4895 with different neck tensions.
1 - .887, 2 - .685, 3 - .785. 4 - .928, 5 - 1.011 Squares are actually .900" (printing error..)
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Great job! Congrats on joining the gold star club!
alberta tactical rifle
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- calgary alberta
Your "experience" is certainly not what we have been hearing.
Maybe everyone is suffering in silence rather than letting us know "IF" they are experiencing problems.
We never claiming that the Modern hunter was a magic rifle, but for those who bother to work up hand loads these rifles ARE producing .5 MOA accuracy.
I am confused about the rifle you claim was piecing primers, the bolt and firing pin are EXACTLY the same as any other AR10 sports, so IF the primers are being pierced regularly I suspect it is more a primer issue than a rifle problem. In any event the owner of the rifle that you claim is experiencing this problem has not contacted us to date.
We had a few charge handles that were not heat treated correctly that caused some issues but we had resolved that instantly. We have not received ANY feedback to date regarding the charge handles not staying in place, so how you have experienced 3 eludes me. I am NOT saying that we have made the perfect rifle by any means, and I expected, like most folks with something new that there would be a few hiccups. We can not improve things unless we hear from the owners of rifles we make about any problems. it is hard to fix things if you don't know about them.
My own MH has just over 2000 rounds through it to date. So far not 1 failure to feed, still running the original buffer retainer, and charge handle, still shoots .5 to .75, no pierced primers or any problems at all. Several others here are sharing this same situation. As mentioned we HAVE had some rifles with minor issues as ANY manufacturer will have, so why the slam? Good luck getting the instant help from ANY of the RESTRICTED high end AR10 variants that we pride ourselves in.
And to set the record straight the base model rifle which is IDENTICAL where it matters to the bling ed out versions is $3500.00, NOT $4000.00 to $5000.00. The high end furniture or CFW barrel have NOTHING to do with accuracy or reliability.
uncledillers
Regular
- Location
- Comox Valley
Rick, could you put up pictures to substantiate, a .5-.75 MOA claim. As a savvy business man Iam sure you took pictures of the groups to put online. When accuracy is a claim proof is priceless. Unless you forgo pictures and just put out a 3/4 MOA guarantee, like GAP did with the GAP10.
If you already have them posted Iam sorry I missed it. But I have been following this for some time and I dont recall seeing any pictures of modern hunters shoot anything close to your claim.
alberta tactical rifle
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- calgary alberta
I posted some in our forum way back when we had just developed the rifle and ended up taking most down after a few guys (haters) claimed we were "doctoring" the groups to garner sales.
Several independent owners have posted results in the various forums including ours. I believe many do not want to post photos of groups due to the atmosphere on the forums. I think that this particular thread illustrates that as a distinct possibility, lots of posts, not many photos.
-I messaged you about the charge handle not staying forward after shooting the first rifle (which I believe was one of the first out of the shop) and the other two I've shot since then both did the same thing.
-I did tell the owner of the rifle with pierced primers to contact you for suggestions on correcting the issue. He was using the South African surplus FMJ that has been going around lately and was getting some strange primer flow with other ammo as was one of the other rifles I shot but the other never had any pierced primers. We were not expecting good groups from this ammo by the way and this is not where the accuracy disappointment came from. Also, my M305 and AR-10 both ate this ammo without any primer issues.
-I never claimed that you told people it was a sub moa rifle, I'm just telling people that if they expect it to shoot sub moa with random ammo they will be disappointed just like all three of the guys were who let me shoot their rifles. From what I've seen it do with factory ammo I have no doubt that it could shoot sub moa with properly worked up handloads which is what I also told the 3 owners.
-My comments were simply to add a little unbiased feedback from the other side from someone who has put rounds through 3 rifles so people are more informed about what they are considering buying since it seems like everyone on here has gone crazy thinking the MH is the magical solution to all of Canada's firearms issues in that it is a non restricted semi auto tack driver that looks awesome. It may have the potential to be a sub moa rifle but most people on this site are never going to see it if they buy one because they either won't put in the effort required to develop a good load for it or they simply can't shoot well enough to see it. Either way, I have only seen one group printed from the 3 rifles that was approx 1 moa then it was back to around 1.5 with the next group. I didn't shoot any of the FGMM from the last rifle but the owner reported it only giving him around 1.5 moa shooting off front and rear support.
Sorry if you took it as a bash, I'm just getting tired of reading over and over on this site guys getting so excited about this rifle and the MV claiming that we finally have an option for a rifle that will give us a non restricted semi auto that shoots such tight groups when all three of the MH's I've shot were more of an at best 1.5 moa which is a great group for a semi but I think expectations are a little high which is why I think the three owners I've shot with felt a little disappointed.
I really do like the rifle and it looks to be very well made but there are a couple small issues to be worked out before people should be spending $3500-$5000 on one.
-I know you had no control over Magpul changing the specs for the gen 3 Pmags but why make it so tight to begin with? My AR-10 would feed from any gen mag I stuffed into it.
-The rifle choking on any soft point ammo is a bit of a deficiency since it is being bought to be used for hunting. This is a bit unfair though as many semi's have trouble with soft point ammo and the rifle did feed polymer tip, HPBT, and FMJ reasonably reliably. We did have a few failures with some of the FMJ but I think that was a magazine issue with one of the XCR pistol mags more than it was a rifle design issue.
-I think all the charge handle needs is a little stiffer detent to hold it folded as all three had the charge handle floating mid stroke after lock back most times.
I was not trying to bash your rifle. Like I told you in our messages I think it's a beautifully built rifle and I really like how you eliminated the rear takedown pin. When the few little issues are resolved I would consider buying one myself and I'm sure it would remain in my collection for years. I just refuse to be a fanboy and blindly support a product, I simply report what I experience with a rifle. I'm sure the revision 1 and 2 models will bring it close to perfection.
You're probably right about that but if I had a rifle that I could shoot 25 rounds in a row out of and get all hitting sub moa I would definitely post a pic of that. I don't care what people think of me or my posts and if they want to hate let them.
I'll have to put together some more 155gr A-max loads for my NR ACR in 300BLK (yes custom stainless barrel
). I'm just not sure I can hold it together on my end to do 25 in a row, lol.Once I get some time I'll put together some more loads and swap the NF 3.5-15 onto the ACR and give it a go
Another reason not many are posting pics here is that it's an extremely hard thing to do, even if the rifle and load combination is performing perfectly there is always the human factor.
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So what you're telling us is that shooters who's skills are unknown to us are shooting reasonable groups for a semi that's relatively new to them with off the shelf ammo? Grass is green, water is wet.
I for one want to see a solid review from a reputable source, or some data from ATRS themselves before I'm ready to commit to purchasing one. However anyone who's looking at a $3.5k+ rifle is likely intelligent enough to realize that bad press for a rifle of a forum is to be expected, and hardly indicative of what the firearms is capable of OR limited to in terms of reliability/performance. They too are waiting to see what the MH is capable of, or they accept that ATRS is not going to produce garbage and are ready to go in head first.
I for one want to see a solid review from a reputable source, or some data from ATRS themselves before I'm ready to commit to purchasing one. However anyone who's looking at a $3.5k+ rifle is likely intelligent enough to realize that bad press for a rifle of a forum is to be expected, and hardly indicative of what the firearms is capable of OR limited to in terms of reliability/performance. They too are waiting to see what the MH is capable of, or they accept that ATRS is not going to produce garbage and are ready to go in head first.
alberta tactical rifle
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- calgary alberta
I think we are both pretty much on the same page.
We decided to call the rifle a "Modern Hunter" as we figured for sure if we called the "Modern Tactical" or "AR anything" it would get the Restricted classification. The fact is it is as close to an AR10 as is possible, shares many of the same parts so apart from minor cosmetics and some proprietary non essential design I think it is unfair for anyone to claim it is any worse than any of the upper end AR10s. I own several different manufacturers AR10 clones and have found with ALOT of load development I can get between .75 and .5 groups.
You could have swapped the bolt from the gun piercing primers into your own AR10 and seen if it was ammo or firing pin. My gut says ammo.
In the owners manual we specifically advise NOT to use surplus ammo as most of it is designed for use in machine guns, is actually 7.62x51 NATO spec and tends to run much hotter than SAAMI 308 Winchester ammo. This becomes more important knowing that the chambers are cut to bolt gun specs, meaning tighter than pretty much any semi auto is cut to.
At no point did we ever claim that with any crap ammo the rifles were .5 MOA capable, with properly worked up handloaded ammo and some commercial match ammo we saw .75 and a few at .5, so it IS attainable. We are getting feedback from many clients stating exactly the same.
Will these as well as any AR or semi auto ever be as accurate as a good bolt gun? In my opinion, not a chance. However for those who find the appeal of a semi auto for whatever reason I think we came up with a great rifle that is as accurate as any of the competition and has the benefit of being NON restricted.
I have yet to find a mag fed semi that will tolerate soft pointed bullets well, if at all. certainly none of my own semi autos do.
I do want to re-iterate that to anyone that has 1 of our rifles and is experiencing ANY issue, please contact us. We can't help you if you choose to remain silent.
alberta tactical rifle
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- calgary alberta
We as others have done, have posted so results and findings.
Not sure who anyone would accept as being a reputable source.
For nearly 20 years ATRS has been producing high quality firearms, this is no secret and likely explains why so many were willing to put their money up for 1 of the 1st 75 rifles before we even had them into full production. Personally I think this speaks volumes as IF we were not well known for building "the good stuff" who would have taken such a leap of faith?
Shooters skills are mostly (but not completely) a small factor in the testing we did with the rifles as we were shooting off of a good rest. There really wouldn't be much to consider with it being new to them as we were shooting off of a solid rest and the trigger in the rifle is fantastic. After a few rounds we were very comfortable behind the rifle and the ergo's are excellent.
First day out we tried 7 different types of factory ammo and the Hornady Z-max was what the rifle seemed to prefer and it would regularly print around 1.5 moa and occasionally close to 1 moa.
We did post a good review with pictures of targets from all the ammo we tried but after some bashing and the op losing his cool with an inappropriate reply that resulted in an infraction the pictures were removed and the post drown.
ATRS is definitely not producing garbage but the expectations of the ninja's on here is getting carried away and is detrimental to the rifle if everyone (who hasn't even shot one) raves about it and says it's so accurate just because ATRS made it then people buy them and it doesn't live up to expectations. It's a very accurate semi auto but no more than any other quality semi and as Rick said in his post it won't shoot like a bolt gun of similar quality can do, this is not a bad thing as it's apples to oranges and if it did shoot better than a bolt gun I would be looking to see what was wrong with the bolt gun. My 16 inch AR-10 shot just as well as the MH but cost me about half of the entry level MH, since 90% of my shooting is done at the range due to where I live this is an easy choice for me, especially since I have a few other non restricted semi's to play with when I go in the bush. For someone living away from the city or who has access to crown or private land the extra cash may be worth it.
Just go into it with realistic expectations and you'll love it. If you go in thinking it's going to shoot most factory ammo into 1 moa or better you'll be let down.
There are a couple minor issues but they are minor and future runs will probably be corrected. It is a beautiful rifle and it's nice to have the factory options to tailor it to your budget.
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I remember all the flack the RFB non restricted bullpup rifle took for shooting 1.5 moa. Which wasn't bad for a semi auto shooting 5 round groups without a target barrel or match trigger. The gas piston system along with tilting block action aren't know for accuracy either. You could get close to 1 moa but definitely not a sub moa firearm. Unless of course only doing 3 round groups.
The XCR-M was also another possible contender. 1.5 moa were some of the most reliable reports I read. Again maybe get close to 1 moa if everything works out. But also not a sub moa firearm. For most 1.5 moa isn't considered good enough. Especially for challenges like this.
The actual AR10/AR308 rifles are very capable of .5 moa groups with 5 rounds. There are however a lot of variables. From barrels, ammo, shooters etc. There are also two AR15 rifles that guarantee sub .5 moa. For a challenge like this, I would recommend going with an AR option. At least to start.
The XCR-M was also another possible contender. 1.5 moa were some of the most reliable reports I read. Again maybe get close to 1 moa if everything works out. But also not a sub moa firearm. For most 1.5 moa isn't considered good enough. Especially for challenges like this.
The actual AR10/AR308 rifles are very capable of .5 moa groups with 5 rounds. There are however a lot of variables. From barrels, ammo, shooters etc. There are also two AR15 rifles that guarantee sub .5 moa. For a challenge like this, I would recommend going with an AR option. At least to start.
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Many people on this site are delusional when it comes to accuracy expectations for rifles, either that or they just can't afford most of the nicer stuff and use the "I won't pay that much for a rifle that only shoots 2 moa" excuse to hide the fact their wife would castrate them if they spent that much on a rifle.
I always hate to read the posts from the guys that say that if a rifle costs over $1500 (or whatever number they pick) it should shoot 1 moa or better. It's just silly and shows how little they know about firearms.
My RFB would do 1.5ish moa with my handloads and my buddy's XCR-M would do about the same with the loads he made for it. To me that's good enough for a semi auto, if I bought a rifle that shot better than that like some of my AR's or my ACR then I'm very pleased but I don't expect it and even if I see a group that good I don't expect it to do it every day, too many factors change day to day.
Funny thing was that I built a 110 grain V-max load for my RFB that would do around 1.5 moa and when I tried it in my DPMS AR with 24 inch stainless barrel it was about 0.75moa
Did you give 147 MFS ammo a try in your RFB? Non brass ammo tends to close the groups down. I know, it's cheap ammo and counter intuitive but a few people have had surprisingly good results. The best we could get was 1.5 moa using match grade reloads. One round in 176 smk I reloaded sucked in the RFB but shot .5 moa in an AR10 DND. In the RFB it wasn't good. 168 smk seemed to be preferred. But that cheap MFS ammo has shown smaller groups by some.
Load development with 69gr SMK's.. 16" Criterion chrome lined barrel
Target 1 & 2 - 24.4gr W748, Targets 3,4,5 23.1 H4895 with different neck tensions.
1 - .887, 2 - .685, 3 - .785. 4 - .928, 5 - 1.011 Squares are actually .900" (printing error..)
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Congrats on earning a gold star! That's some fine shooting.
This thread is awesome to read lol.
Here is my take. Let me preface this with that I don't have a semi-auto black rifle yet, but I am close to getting one, either a modern hunter or a XCR-M.
From my experience going to the range, some people have no clue when it comes to shooting sub MOA with a rifle. I want to be clear that I am talking about the shooter here, not the rifle. Assuming you have a decent bolt rifle I am sure you can make it shoot sub MOA. Personally, I think too many people blame the rifle, not the shooter, when their groups are all over the place. I have seen tons of people with $5k bolt action rigs shooting 3MOA and going mental over their defective rifle and talking about getting new parts or whatever to correct the problem.
1) Can the shooter shoot sum MOA!? I don't mean to be insulting, but I have seen so many people blame the gun when their technique is not at the level it needs to be. "Shooting off a good rest" doesn't have much to do with anything if you hold the rifle poorly, shaking it when the trigger breaks. The cleanest trigger break doesn't mean anything with the shooter nudges the rifle 1/60th of a degree. 1 MOA = 1/60th of a degree. If your rifle and ammo were infinitely precise (which they aren't) you have to keep it still less than 1/60th of a degree to shoot sub MOA. Reality is that you are going to move your rifle somewhat when you pull the trigger, so let's say you have a .5 MOA rifle and a .5 MOA shooter, now you have a 1 MOA outcome. Sometimes you'll get good sub MOA groups, but sometimes not. If the shooter doesn't have the technique to shoot sub MOA it doesn't matter how good the rifle is.
2) What ammo does it like? Mine shoots Federal blue box and Barnes VOR-TX at about .75 MOA, but shoots all Hornady at 2 MOA and Winchester XP3s at 4MOA. My rifle consistently shoots sub MOA with the right ammo. I have tried virtually all brands and bullet types for my rifle and the results are astonishing, from sub MOA to 4 MOA and cost has nothing to do with it either. If you haven't bought one box of every type of ammo and tried every bullet weight, bullet type, and brand, you can't say your rifle doesn't shoot sub MOA. I am sure it is the same with semi-auto black rifles. Some will like one brand and weight and some won't hit the side of a barn with it. When I read people going on and on about how the modern hunter under-performs or the XCR-M under-performs have you tried a wide enough variety of ammo? Rifles can be super picky. In my opinion, there really is no such thing as good and bad ammo, accurate and inaccurate ammo, there is just ammo that shoots well out of your rifle and ammo that doesn't shoot well out of your rifle, with the exception of perhaps some cheap surplus stuff that is just all over the place for pretty much everyone.
3) Temperature of the barrel is a factor, obviously.
Here is my take. Let me preface this with that I don't have a semi-auto black rifle yet, but I am close to getting one, either a modern hunter or a XCR-M.
From my experience going to the range, some people have no clue when it comes to shooting sub MOA with a rifle. I want to be clear that I am talking about the shooter here, not the rifle. Assuming you have a decent bolt rifle I am sure you can make it shoot sub MOA. Personally, I think too many people blame the rifle, not the shooter, when their groups are all over the place. I have seen tons of people with $5k bolt action rigs shooting 3MOA and going mental over their defective rifle and talking about getting new parts or whatever to correct the problem.
1) Can the shooter shoot sum MOA!? I don't mean to be insulting, but I have seen so many people blame the gun when their technique is not at the level it needs to be. "Shooting off a good rest" doesn't have much to do with anything if you hold the rifle poorly, shaking it when the trigger breaks. The cleanest trigger break doesn't mean anything with the shooter nudges the rifle 1/60th of a degree. 1 MOA = 1/60th of a degree. If your rifle and ammo were infinitely precise (which they aren't) you have to keep it still less than 1/60th of a degree to shoot sub MOA. Reality is that you are going to move your rifle somewhat when you pull the trigger, so let's say you have a .5 MOA rifle and a .5 MOA shooter, now you have a 1 MOA outcome. Sometimes you'll get good sub MOA groups, but sometimes not. If the shooter doesn't have the technique to shoot sub MOA it doesn't matter how good the rifle is.
2) What ammo does it like? Mine shoots Federal blue box and Barnes VOR-TX at about .75 MOA, but shoots all Hornady at 2 MOA and Winchester XP3s at 4MOA. My rifle consistently shoots sub MOA with the right ammo. I have tried virtually all brands and bullet types for my rifle and the results are astonishing, from sub MOA to 4 MOA and cost has nothing to do with it either. If you haven't bought one box of every type of ammo and tried every bullet weight, bullet type, and brand, you can't say your rifle doesn't shoot sub MOA. I am sure it is the same with semi-auto black rifles. Some will like one brand and weight and some won't hit the side of a barn with it. When I read people going on and on about how the modern hunter under-performs or the XCR-M under-performs have you tried a wide enough variety of ammo? Rifles can be super picky. In my opinion, there really is no such thing as good and bad ammo, accurate and inaccurate ammo, there is just ammo that shoots well out of your rifle and ammo that doesn't shoot well out of your rifle, with the exception of perhaps some cheap surplus stuff that is just all over the place for pretty much everyone.
3) Temperature of the barrel is a factor, obviously.
