Trudeau and Blair BAN 12 Gauge and 10 Gauge SHOTGUNS!

LOL "retired lawyer" with that spelling, grammar and painfully wrong conclusion no wonder you're retired.

From what I can see, his spelling and grammar were spot on, and I agree with his conclusion. I understand why the firearms community is choosing this hill to die on, to show the rushed nature of the OIC writ large, but I don't think it's going to have the conclusion we necessarily want. I think that there are other grounds on which to challenge the legislation without looking like we're simultaneously declaring that the sky is falling and picking fly #### out of pepper.

My goodness. Your reply omitted the Oxford comma. You must be a grammar whiz. I’ll certainly yield the floor to your explication of my many errors. Spelling ain’t my strong suit so skip those. I’ll take Fowler’s as authoritative on my grammatical errors. Cite freely. I’m sorry that my conclusion that shotguns are still legal causes you pain. Feel free to set me straight.

I like you a lot already. Please do continue to provide insight into these matters, and others, as I feel that we're getting a little wrapped around the axle here instead of finding useful ways of pointing out the idiocy of the OIC.

Bradley
 
I like you a lot already. Please do continue to provide insight into these matters, and others, as I feel that we're getting a little wrapped around the axle here instead of finding useful ways of pointing out the idiocy of the OIC.

Bradley

So to be clear... you like the random anonymous person on the internet over two pre eminent firearms lawyers in Canada ACTUALLY pointing out the idiocy of the OIC... in a court of law... with their real names and professional reputations attached..
 
I’m a retired lawyer with a fair bit of experience relevant to this thread. Let me say that I’m a long time firearms owner, and that I don’t at all agree with the OIC here, which will I think, do nothing whatever to advance public safety, and which I think was instead drafted with purely, and coldly, political motives. I also think it less than well thought out, inelegantly drafted, contains some clear mistakes, and shouldn’t have been put in force by the route adopted. I hope the present government pays a political price for it. However the notion that it turns shotguns into prohibited weapons is not, in my view, correct, and advancing that argument does not, in my view, help our cause. At best, it’s a distraction; at worst, it makes us look foolish.

This notion started as a result of an opinion which I have read. I do not know the motives behind the writing of that opinion; I do disagree with the conclusion. While hardly necessary: I am not now a practicing lawyer, and what follows is but my opinion, and not legal advice.

The opinion upon which this whole mess is based has, as its core premise, the following definition: “The bore of a firearm barrel is the largest internal diameter of the barrel tube through which the projectile travels.” (Emphasis added.)This is stated without any authority whatever. The core question is: is this correct? Given that the conclusions of the opinion depend entirely upon the acceptance of the definition, it’s a tad strange that it is presented without giving any authority.

Be that as it may. How do you interpret s. 95 which, subject to some exceptions, makes “(a)ny firearm with a bore diameter of 20 mm or greater...” a prohibited weapon.? Obviously, how you determine the bore diameter is pretty important. Note that ‘bore’ in “bore diameter” doesn’t have the same meaning as ‘bore’ in the definition quoted above. Here ‘bore’ simply means the interior of the barrel, and prohibits barrels whose measured internal diameter is 20mm or more. So the question is: where do you measure it? If the bore is of constant diameter, no problem (leaving aside land to land or grove to grove issues). But if it isn’t, do you measure at the smallest bit, the largest bit, or take some average? The terms ‘bore’ and ‘bore diameter’ aren’t defined in the OIC, the regulations, or Firearms Act. So we have to look at normal usage, and the legislative intent, as shown, among other things, by the relevant bits of the language of the OIC itself.

Let’s do both. To start with legislative intent: is the intent to prohibit weapons with large bores, because they are a danger in and of themselves, or is it to prohibit weapons capable of firing projectiles with certain characteristics? The objectives stated in the OIC are to prohibit firearms “...characterized by their design and their capability of inflicting significant harm....” We can also look to the particularized list, which includes anti-tank rifles, mortars, missile launchers and the like. Not a single firearm on the list fires a projectile less than 20mm in diameter, and all of the intended projectiles are capable of inflicting more damage than your average rifle or shotgun. So the question is: is the intent of the legislation to prohibit weapons capable of firing projectiles larger than 20mm in diameter, which would entail measuring bore diameter at the smallest bit, or is it to ban an Elmer Fudd style .22 rifle, manufactured with a flared muzzle exceeding 20mm, although the rifle is incapable of firing anything other than a .22? That would be a silly result, and isn’t consistent with the stated objectives. There’s a principle of legislative interpretation that you don’t adopt a meaning that gives a silly result when a meaning that doesn’t give a silly result is available. Accordingly, ‘bore diameter’ means as measured at the smallest point if the bore has a varying diameter.

What about normal usage? While hardly precisely defined terms of art, ‘bore’ and ‘calibre’ are sometimes defined such that for a particular barrel ‘bore’ is the inside diameter of the barrel, and ‘calibre’ is the outside diameter of a projectile that barrel will fire, and that calibre roughly equals bore. For obvious reasons, if the barrel is not of constant diameter, the bore is the smallest diameter of the barrel. That usage is common enough that defining ‘bore’ as the “...largest internal diameter of the barrel tube...” is clearly wrong.

Finally, given that the OIC effectively creates a crime, and is therefore to be strictly construed in favour of an accused, there is simply no way on earth given the above, and given other factors - such as whether the language is the section can even be applied to shotguns given their barrels are measured by gauge, not by bore diameter, and given that the Minister responsible says otherwise, that any court would find a 12 gauge shotgun is captured by the language of this OIC, or that any Crown would approve a charge in the first place.

A final point: the language in the OIC which effectively makes some firearms prohibited starts off with “the firearms...” or “any firearm.... ” In other words, if something isn’t a firearm, the language that follows doesn’t apply, and ‘firearm’ does have a legislative definition. So because a flare gun isn’t a firearm, the OIC doesn’t apply however big the bore. So too with air soft guns or the like. Just because it has a name that occurs in a list, it doesn’t become a prohibited firearm, unless it was a firearm in the first place. To put it another way: the OIC only changes the classification of some firearms; it doesn’t make anything a firearm that wasn’t so in the first place. I can name my dog AR-15. The OIC doesn’t thereby make him into a prohibited weapon.

Well bill, the law that was created left no room for missinterpretation in regards to the bore of a firearm being 20mm or greater is a prohibited firearm. The interior from breach to muzzle, not the outside, not what can or cannot be attached at the end like a muzzle flash suppressor. A removable choke which is installed on the interior of the bore is not considered part of the barrel as it is a detachable item and not fixed as per manufacture design. There very well maybe 12/10 gauge shotguns out there that by designed have a bore within legal limits with a nondetachable choke. This being now understood, the law is clear that the diameter is still a measurement of the bore from breach to end, it could be as thin as a pen almost the entire length however if at any point the bore exceeds the 20mm it is now a prohibited firearm.

This is like an argument over a bullpup rifle having a barrel length of 18.6 and the overall firearm length being in the legal limits, However if the firearm was not manufactured to be a bullpup and it is an aftermarket stock, this make the firearm prohibited regardless if it matched the RCMP specs for a legal firearm. This law just like the other is cut and dry.

Another legal argument proven to this is a detachable flash suppressor at the end of the barrel does not count to the over all 18.6 length of a firearm because it is a detachable feature like the choke of a shotgun, depending on the overall length the firearm is now restricted and or prohibited depending on the remaining specs. There have been many law abiding firearm owners over the years that have been charged for this.

lastly, barking interpretations via twitter is not how law is amended for interpretations and clarification.
 
So to be clear... you like the random anonymous person on the internet over two pre eminent firearms lawyers in Canada ACTUALLY pointing out the idiocy of the OIC... in a court of law... with their real names and professional reputations attached..

I understand their position. I don't agree with their assertion. I applaud the effort, and think that it may result in definitions being attached for things that should have been included in the first place (bore, caliber, assault rifle, assault weapon, semi-automatic, "lots of ammunition" and other such words and phrases that are used without any indication of what they mean specifically).

I see the danger of allowing it to go unchallenged, as the RCMP has demonstrated that their creative interpretation of the "letter of the law" usually works out to the detriment of the shooting community, not our benefit.

I also think that Spinoza's explanation demonstrates that without defining bore, we can default to how a reasonable person, under reasonable circumstances, would understand its meaning - generally speaking, that is how the standard of law is applied when discretion (by judges) is required.

Bradley
 
Well bill, the law that was created left no room for missinterpretation in regards to the bore of a firearm being 20mm or greater is a prohibited firearm. The interior from breach to muzzle, not the outside, not what can or cannot be attached at the end like a muzzle flash suppressor. A removable choke which is installed on the interior of the bore is not considered part of the barrel as it is a detachable item and not fixed as per manufacture design. There very well maybe 12/10 gauge shotguns out there that by designed have a bore within legal limits with a nondetachable choke. This being now understood, the law is clear that the diameter is still a measurement of the bore from breach to end, it could be as thin as a pen almost the entire length however if at any point the bore exceeds the 20mm it is now a prohibited firearm.

This is like an argument over a bullpup rifle having a barrel length of 18.6 and the overall firearm length being in the legal limits, However if the firearm was not manufactured to be a bullpup and it is an aftermarket stock, this make the firearm prohibited regardless if it matched the RCMP specs for a legal firearm. This law just like the other is cut and dry.

Another legal argument proven to this is a detachable flash suppressor at the end of the barrel does not count to the over all 18.6 length of a firearm because it is a detachable feature like the choke of a shotgun, depending on the overall length the firearm is now restricted and or prohibited depending on the remaining specs. There have been many law abiding firearm owners over the years that have been charged for this.

lastly, barking interpretations via twitter is not how law is amended for interpretations and clarification.

The law is clear?? I thought thats what this was all about, the fact that it's not clear? Interesting take. Round and round we go is right, just with different people. How can the law be clear when there is clearly no law defining bore diameter?
 
I understand their position. I don't agree with their assertion. I applaud the effort, and think that it may result in definitions being attached for things that should have been included in the first place (bore, caliber, assault rifle, assault weapon, semi-automatic, "lots of ammunition" and other such words and phrases that are used without any indication of what they mean specifically).

I see the danger of allowing it to go unchallenged, as the RCMP has demonstrated that their creative interpretation of the "letter of the law" usually works out to the detriment of the shooting community, not our benefit.

I also think that Spinoza's explanation demonstrates that without defining bore, we can default to how a reasonable person, under reasonable circumstances, would understand its meaning - generally speaking, that is how the standard of law is applied when discretion (by judges) is required.

Bradley

So if we cant define bore... and the law is written specifically around a 20mm bore...

How does the CBSA allow any imports?
How does a govt not redefine restrictions to the body approving imports...

If the CBSA and RCMP standards dont matter... how are gun classifications decided? Reasonable people... JFC....

I'm also curious to how you can possibly say how a reasonable person would think about it ....

And live in Canada... after an OIC banned 1500 "military style" assault rifles... how does a reasonable person define "military style" assault rifles...

I'm not even sure how to argue this anymore... this is really insane...

Where is that all is well house burning down meme
 
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Another legal argument proven to this is a detachable flash suppressor at the end of the barrel does not count to the over all 18.6 length of a firearm because it is a detachable feature like the choke of a shotgun, depending on the overall length the firearm is now restricted and or prohibited depending on the remaining specs. There have been many law abiding firearm owners over the years that have been charged for this.

This is incorrect, and again, we need to be incredibly specific. A muzzle device does not count towards the barrel length, but does count towards the overall length of a firearm. Not pertinent or applicable to the 18.5" requirement for semi-automatic firearms to be considered non-restricted, but very much pertinent to the requirement of non-restricted firearms to be of greater than 26" OAL.

Bradley
 
Are all you 20 mm skeptics willing to put your futures in the hands of some young law enforcement officer willing to do “thy bidding for the emperor” with an agenda and something to prove in order to get his first “bust” . Not me. I will buy a non removable choke Remington for now.
 
So if we cant define bore... and the law is written specifically around a 20mm bore...

How does the CBSA allow these imports?

The same way they allow everything - using their own made-up explanations, with the understanding that their interpretations may change at any time, and the fact that previously allowing the importation of an item doesn't necessarily mean it is legal to do so, nor does it provide tacit approval to do so again in the future.

This is like Whose Line Is It Anyway, where everything is made up and the points don't matter.

Bradley
 
How can there be law when the rule of law in a Democratic Society is broken,,, or passed by a leader of our county that says he belives in the rules of laws in Canada yet he fails to follow them in this Institution...

PS: I take full responsibility for my poor grammar since I Only have part of grade 1,,, I also missed out on the proper Manitoba English stuff too...

I see that the CGN grammar police monitoring this thread ,,, not that its a big deal or anything... Ha
 
Fair point. I suppose FUDD is exactly the correct term in this case. I will refrain from lumping boomers in with them, for that, and to you, I apologize.

No need to apologize brother , like I said , I understand the frustration . I went from an era of legally owning full auto's and wilderness carry to the current day of open warfare on firearms of any sort . The sad truth is , there's always been a certain part of the shooting community that's more than willing to throw the latest target group under the bus , I have the tire tracks on my back to prove it . As bad as they are , the total gun ban , anti hunting , anti meat crowd are 100 times worse . It's always been a fight , and it always will be .
 
why would you think a 50 BMG would be used for hunting in Canada? Typically used for target and or ELR competitions/practice.

It makes a fine hunting rifle, I have used a friend's numerous times for deer, moose and elk hunting. It is a tool just like any other rifle used for harvesting game, it just allows you to do it from a longer range.
 
As much as I hate the liberals....this banning of 12 gauges is Fake news and gun owners are being played by industry leaders and Orgs.

The government has "played" us with the oic, all the fallout as a result should be directed at them, not lawyers who defend people based on the letter of the law as written daily.
 
According to SAAMI :

BORE DIAMETER
1. Rifled barrels: the minor interior diameter of a barrel which is the diameter of a circle formed by the tops of the lands. 2. Shotguns or muskets, the interior dimension of the barrel forward of the chamber but before any restrictive choke or expanded muzzle.

What does that have to do with how the rcmp lab will measure your gun when you are in court trying to get out of a prohibited firearm charge?
 
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