Only as complicated as one wants to pretend to make it? Most prefer not to guess.
R.
400 Yard Elk cartridge . what's your Pick
- Thread starter Spruster
- Start date
Only as complicated as one wants to pretend to make it? Most prefer not to guess.
R.
How's that different from a guess at a distance and spinning the dial to said guessed range though?
Maybe you know your bullets hitting at the intersection of the crosshairs at a given range but that doesn't mean you guessed that range properly. Does it make for a more precise miss?
Maybe you know your bullets hitting at the intersection of the crosshairs at a given range but that doesn't mean you guessed that range properly. Does it make for a more precise miss?
You'll notice that nothing was said about dialing and guessing a range? Distance buys time. Time enough to get a range.
It really is how about one views yardage, as a constant, or a variable. Most would prefer it as a constant.
If fellers are taking 5 second pot shots at 300 and 400 yards, off hand, without knowing the distance... well... sure? That would make for an interesting thread, no?
If that same fellow has is scope set up for whatever zero... and is shooting somewhere less than that, then let er rip?
It really also depends on where, and how, a guy hunts.
There is lots of guessing, as usual, on these threads. The dial guy walks around with his scope set to whatever zero will give him the best chance for that fast shot. That zero can change, or it can stay the same. It's fully adjustable. Not sure why that's a hard thing to grasp. To suggest that it gets dialed for every shot, is silly. But hey... lots of silly here as well.
R.
Yeah thats why I don't follow.
Dialing and MPBR are both contingent on having a good idea of the range one is dealing with. Without that, they both fail.
So I didn't catch where we went into the weeds on guesstimated holdovers at guesstimated ranges, but at this point it kinda feels like both sides are trying harder to score some kind of points than to make sense lol
Dialing and MPBR are both contingent on having a good idea of the range one is dealing with. Without that, they both fail.
So I didn't catch where we went into the weeds on guesstimated holdovers at guesstimated ranges, but at this point it kinda feels like both sides are trying harder to score some kind of points than to make sense lol
BigUglyMan
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- New Scotland
The nice thing about the west is that a lot of it is chunked up into handy geometric shapes of consistent size. If there is a fence that runs through the middle of the geometric shape and the animal is on the same side as you, it is within 440 yards. So it doesn't take much to be within the MPBR of a flat-shooting cartridge, in that situation.
Nothing wrong with either system so long as you're using a range finger. Get a range reading and either put the crosshairs in the middle of the vitals and squeeze, or twist your turret to whatever the come up is for the range. One offers more precision, the other offers more speed. But both will reliably place a bullet in the vitals so long as the shooter does the trick.
Arguing that one is better than the other is a little like sorting the #### out of pepper.
It takes effort to try and understand anything... it takes much less effort to sling spew.
The weeds started with a 5 second window being mentioned, and the fact that the whole point of MPBR is to cover the widest range of distance available, via holdover only, and acknowledges that distance is a variable.
There shouldn't be much discussion that a dialed zero, at a known distance, would be more accurate than a holdover, at a guessed distance, and yet that seems exactly where it's at.
There is a distance at which a guess and a holdover is certainly good enough, and works just fine for most. Get beyond that distance, and the errors compound quickly. That distance is different for everyone.
300 to 400 yards? With a guessed distance and guessed holdover, in a hurry, and offhand? C'mon man...That's a stretch.
There isn't much that is more accurate, or versatile, than a rifle zeroed at 100 yards, with a turret, so that zero can be set to any distance, at anytime. That should make sense to anyone that has shot one?
R.
I don't think anyone but you is suggesting that the MPBR shot would be offhand at an unknown distance to 300-400. I mean yeah everyone should agree thats not wise. But no one suggested such a thing. Did they?
And again, level playing field, unknown distance MPBR shot should be compared to unknown distance dial shot.
If you know the range you know the range. Both methods are great. If you don't know the range...kind of a tie there too, no?
Using MPBR there wouldn't be any hold over at 300-400 yards. You'd have your crosshair on the middle of the animal, and its flight path would keep it in the vitals at high and low points. Not really seeing how one is more or less guessing than the other. Sounds like a wash to me.
*shrug*
And again, level playing field, unknown distance MPBR shot should be compared to unknown distance dial shot.
If you know the range you know the range. Both methods are great. If you don't know the range...kind of a tie there too, no?
Using MPBR there wouldn't be any hold over at 300-400 yards. You'd have your crosshair on the middle of the animal, and its flight path would keep it in the vitals at high and low points. Not really seeing how one is more or less guessing than the other. Sounds like a wash to me.
*shrug*
The 5 seconds... would suggest an offhand shot?
If one knows the range... there should be little question that the dial is more accurate than a holdover. How can it not be?
Keeping it in the vitals, between a high and low, is certainly different that keeping it in the vitals directly in the middle? The error reduction should again be obvious, especially at 300-400 yards?
With a known distance and a dial, there is no guessing. Can't say that with a fixed zero?
R.
Rman said:
It couldn't happen when sitting, kneeling, using a ruck as a support, etc? Animals never move, leave, turn, put thick brush between you and them again etc? This seems like a pretty arbitrarily imposed constraint. I can see times where you have 5 seconds to make a shot while sitting in a blind with game 50 yards away.
Rman said:
If arguing accuracy, yeah. If arguing effectiveness, its a wash. I think everyone else is arguing "accurate enough to hit vitals" which is the goal, and its causing a disconnect.
Rman said:
I can see how it makes for a couple inches of room for error, yeah. Easily negated by holding a smidge higher, without really guessing, since you know your flight path. But yeah, putting a bullet in the middle of a vital zone allows more slop than putting it right at the bottom of one.
Rman said:
Sure. But the guessing is inconsequential. If the flight path puts you in vitals it puts you in vitals. Especially at 300 yards, the flight path of a modern, fast hunting bullet hardly needs much calculation. I do get that if you say, happen to nudge the point of aim downward while pulling the trigger, the POA/POI for middle of the animal provides a few inches of safety cushion.
Joel... it's all about controlling variables. Most will want to take the most accurate shot they can, to reduce the one variable that has the least control... the wind. The errors compound with the distance. That holdover shot that may or not hit the top or the bottom of the vitals at 3 or 400 yards, could easily drift out with a stiff breeze. That safety cushion is gone. It is less likely to do so, when the shot is dialed for a center hit. Accuracy is effective. More accuracy is more effective.
None of this is counting for shooter error, or skill level. Guessing always has consequences. What is acceptable for some, certainly isn't for others.
Accurate enough? That's an unnecessary compromise, is it not? Very simply put, the fella with the turret has way more options available than the MPBR guy does.
If nothing else, this is what is trying to be shown...
The rest, as BUM has it, really is fly #### in pepper?
R.
None of this is counting for shooter error, or skill level. Guessing always has consequences. What is acceptable for some, certainly isn't for others.
Accurate enough? That's an unnecessary compromise, is it not? Very simply put, the fella with the turret has way more options available than the MPBR guy does.
If nothing else, this is what is trying to be shown...
The rest, as BUM has it, really is fly #### in pepper?
R.
Last edited:
Hey Joel, if that cheers emoji is in reference to our fictional beer and wings night don’t bother. Rman has left the building after being talked to by hand.
5 seconds is plenty of time to get off a supported shot, unless your slung rifle is hung up on your pack full of survival gear and face paint.
5 seconds is plenty of time to get off a supported shot, unless your slung rifle is hung up on your pack full of survival gear and face paint.
Apparently you don't actually understand the concept. But you do you. - dan
Left and Talked to? Ok...
Plenty of time? Supported shot, now?
Keep guessing. Read more... type less.
R.
Last edited:
Same? Sure seems that the same could be said of you?
What are you having difficulty with, Dan?
R.
