Wild boar in Ontario

bearkilr said:
Yes, which makes a big difference. The wild boar of Europe for instance are nothing like the feral hogs of Texas in their behaviour and reproduction abilities.

You're basically saying a Chihuahua is the same as a Timber Wolf
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The ones in the US are a mix of wild boar, feral pig, and hybrids. Feral pigs and hybrids revert to something very similar to wild boars in just a few generations, so no it doesn't make a big difference. Unless of course you've got a source for your claim? I'll gladly look into anything that might contradict my opinion, thats how we learn.
 
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Suther said:
The ones in the US are a mix of wild boar, feral pig, and hybrids. Feral pigs and hybrids revert to something very similar to wild boars in just a few generations. And no, the differentiation from wild to domestic is nowhere near as dramatic as chihuahua and wolf.
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They're nothing alike. Wild boar have litter sizes that are much smaller than feral hogs. They also very rarely have more than one litter per year, especially true for climates such as we have in Canada. It's unrealistic to think something like the Texas feral hog population explosion could happen here. In more temperate climates their numbers can grow quite large, but remember that most of Canada is frozen for almost half the year. There's no corn to be found in January.
 
MiG25 said:
Yeah right, they tell us wolves supress coyotes but hunting and trapping increases them...
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Coyotes reproducing more/faster when population densities drop is a very well documented phenomenon. For top predators to regulate/suppress coyote populations we're talking about large numbers of those wolves over large areas.

That's a much different situation with different dynamics than "lets shoot a bunch of coyotes", I think it should be very easily seen why. Niches and their exploitation, yknow? WTF good does it do to increase your population density when the problem is that more successful predators, in much larger numbers, are already dominating your ecosystem? All of those extra offspring will not survive to reach reproductive age.

On the other hand, in an area in which those top predators are NOT present in sufficient enough numbers to be a limiting factor, the population booms when density falls do actually serve a purpose.

Summary/bottom line: suppression by wolves is a function of how many wolves occupy how much space and monopolize how much of the resources of that niche, besides causing direct mortality.

BTW, for anyone who likes learning more about coyotes/our history with them and control, check out Dan Flores' "Coyote America: A natural and supernatural history"
 
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bearkilr said:
They're nothing alike. Wild boar have litter sizes that are much smaller than feral hogs. They also very rarely have more than one litter per year, especially true for climates such as we have in Canada. It's unrealistic to think something like the Texas feral hog population explosion could happen here. In more temperate climates their numbers can grow quite large, but remember that most of Canada is frozen for almost half the year. There's no corn to be found in January.
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Is that so? Because when I look for answers that is not what I'm getting. There is only a small difference.

Europe:
The overall (unweighted by samplesize) mean litter size across all studies was 4.75 (95% confidence interval: 4.41–5.09).The mean litter size for adult boar in Europe (unweighted) was 6.28 (95% CI:5.91–6.65)
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https://www.researchgate.net/public...n_a_large_mammal_The_wild_boar_Sus_scrofa#pf5

US:
Average litter size was comparable to other populations, and wild pigs maintain an average fetal litter size of 5.43
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https://wildlife.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1002/jwmg.22304

It would appear that US pigs have a higher chance of having very large litters, but the average number of piglets is not wildly different.
 
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bearkilr said:
Oh right I forgot, climate change is going to cause a wild boar explosion. They'll be feasting in the banana groves of Churchill in a few years.
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He does have a point though, jokes aside. We're seeing the impacts right now...but either way, saying the winters here will keep them in check is rather optimistic, at least if we're counting on things being frozen half the year.
 
bearkilr said:
Under good conditions, as in Texas farm country, they can have 10-12 per litter. Wild boar never have that many.
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Would they under similar "good conditions"?

To borrow a concept from the avian guys, perhaps Lack's optimal clutch size comes into effect and they would likewise start having more piglets.

If the American wild pigs show that kind of elasticity, why can't the European boars?

Suther said:
CAN have, is not DOES HAVE.

One pig putting out 12 does not mean they all do. Average litter size is only marginally higher than wild boars.
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Or one reacts quite quickly to changes in their environment....which doesn't rule out that the other can, too.

Unless some European boars are put on Texas farms where they live a life of plenty...how do we know?
 
Joel said:
Coyotes reproducing more/faster when population densities drop is a very well documented phenomenon. For top predators to regulate/suppress coyote populations we're talking about large numbers of those wolves over large areas.

That's a much different situation with different dynamics than "lets shoot a bunch of coyotes", I think it should be very easily seen why. Niches and their exploitation, yknow? WTF good does it do to increase your population density when the problem is that more successful predators, in much larger numbers, are already dominating your ecosystem? All of those extra offspring will not survive to reach reproductive age.

On the other hand, in an area in which those top predators are NOT present in sufficient enough numbers to be a limiting factor, the population booms when density falls do actually serve a purpose.

Summary/bottom line: suppression by wolves is a function of how many wolves occupy how much space and monopolize how much of the resources of that niche, besides causing direct mortality.

BTW, for anyone who likes learning more about coyotes/our history with them and control, check out Dan Flores' "Coyote America: A natural and supernatural history"
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Human beings are a Top Predator, as you just said, densities need to drop for reproductive success to go up, meaning populations are dropping. So in other words, Hunting/Trapping reduces numbers.
 
MiG25 said:
Human beings are a Top Predator, as you just said, densities need to drop for reproductive success to go up, meaning populations are dropping. So in other words, Hunting/Trapping reduces numbers.
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Well no, MiG.

Again, think about it.

We don't eat all the things that coyotes need to eat. Wolves do. Don't just latch onto the word "top predator" and expound on it to mean us as well.

IF the resources are available, then their rising birth rates can make it very hard to clear them from a large area. But if your top predators are what is sucking up all those resources, which we don't, then....thats different.

Now perhaps if we control hunted/trapped coyotes AND strived to remove as much of their food as we could to lower the carrying capacity K of the environment, we'd see the sort of fluctuating mean that coyotes have around wolf populations. But you're really only thinking of half the situation. Gotta zoom out a little bit man.
 
Joel said:
Would they under similar "good conditions"?

To borrow a concept from the avian guys, perhaps Lack's optimal clutch size comes into effect and they would likewise start having more piglets.

If the American wild pigs show that kind of elasticity, why can't the European boars?
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Well there's nowhere in Canada that has conditions like Texas.

The Amur tiger of Siberia is currently threatened to become extinct because of a few winters with a lack of pine nuts which its major prey feed on, deer and wild boar.
So in places like Siberia, not unlike a large part of Canada, wild boar rely on a single food source during the tough months.
Here you'd likely find them in the cattail swamps rooting, unless it happens to be a winter with little snow to insulate from the frost and they can't get to the roots. While they may be adaptable, they can't live on browse like moose.
 
riversrest said:
It says: "Litter sizes increased by about 0.15 offspring per degree of latitude"

You cannot compare fertility of Texas feral hogs with boar living in northern Europe or Ontario.
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Dallas Texas and Toronto are only 10 degrees latitude apart.

Also they are claiming litter size GOES UP with latitude. Check the graphs at the bottom if you don't believe me.


I'm still hoping you'll answer my previous questions about the driven hunt you did in the Black Forest. I'm very interested in learning more about the way hunting is done outside of my bubble.
edit - I see you edited a post above and provided more info. Much thanks to you for that.
 
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bearkilr said:
Well there's nowhere in Canada that has conditions like Texas.

The Amur tiger of Siberia is currently threatened to become extinct because of a few winters with a lack of pine nuts which its major prey feed on, deer and wild boar.
So in places like Siberia, not unlike a large part of Canada, wild boar rely on a single food source during the tough months.
Here you'd likely find them in the cattail swamps rooting, unless it happens to be a winter with little snow to insulate from the frost and they can't get to the roots. While they may be adaptable, they can't live on browse like moose.
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Right, so under similar conditions they do have a similar amount of offspring IF resources are limited, and we do not know if European porkers respond with as much elasticity as the American ones do in conditions of plenty...no?

Now whether or not theres enough grub to survive on in the winter, that part i get haha. Are there places with enough ag land to get around that?
 
Joel said:
Right, so under similar conditions they do have a similar amount of offspring IF resources are limited, and we do not know if European porkers respond with as much elasticity as the American ones do in conditions of plenty...no?

Now whether or not theres enough grub to survive on in the winter, that part i get haha. Are there places with enough ag land to get around that?
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No, wild boar will never be as prolific as feral hogs.

As for ag land, the tilled up wheat/corn/oat/barley fields covered in snow don't provide much nutrition this time of year.
 
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