Wild boar in Ontario

[Joel]

No, wild boar will never be as prolific as feral hogs.

As for ag land, the tilled up wheat/corn/oat/barley fields covered in snow don't provide much nutrition this time of year.

Do we know what their response would be in like conditions? As in, this has actually been established?

If outside of optimal conditions the American pigs' litter size also shrinks to 5 per, I have my suspicions that there may be some ecological release taking place with the European ones if allowed as well....wonder how much though.

 

[Suther]

No, wild boar will never be as prolific as feral hogs.

As for ag land, the tilled up wheat/corn/oat/barley fields covered in snow don't provide much nutrition this time of year.

Germany is about half the size of Texas (349k km^2 vs 695k km^2) and they have an estimated 1.4-2.2m boar. Texas has an estimated 2.6m. Italy is 302k km^2 and they are estimated to have 2.3m.

Looks to me like wild boar are in fact just as prolific, at least in Germany or Italy.

 

[bearkilr]

Germany is about half the size of Texas (349k km^2 vs 695k km^2) and they have an estimated 1.4-2.2m boar. Texas has an estimated 2.6m. Italy is 300k km^2 and they are estimated to have 2.3m.

Looks to me like wild boar are in fact just as prolific, at least in Germany or Italy.

Germany has always had wild boar, they've had hundreds of years to become established. Countries like Sweden eradicated them but they're up in numbers again due to escapees from farms. And there again, that's only in the southern portion as central and northern Sweden's climate isn't very hospitable for wild boar. They'll likely spread north as well, but not in the numbers they are in the more temperate south.

 

[Suther]

Germany has always had wild boar, they've had hundreds of years to become established. Countries like Sweden eradicated them but they're up in numbers again due to escapees from farms. And there again, that's only in the southern portion as central and northern Sweden's climate isn't very hospitable for wild boar. They'll likely spread north as well, but not in the numbers they are in the more temperate south.

Stop moving the goal posts. You said they would never be as prolific, yet the evidence says otherwise. You said litters are much larger for pigs vs boar, yet evidence says otherwise.

Who cares about most of Canada. 70% of Canadians live BELOW the 49th parallel (Toronto is at 43.something, Montreal at 45.something). 90% live within 100 miles of the US border. Most farmland is in the southern reaches of the country. It doesn't matter what the northern 90% of Canada is like if they are capable of wreaking havoc on the 10% where we actually live and grow crops/livestock.

Do you have any opinions based on evidence, or do you just go with whatever feels right to you?

 

[MiG25]

Well no, MiG.

Again, think about it.

We don't eat all the things that coyotes need to eat. Wolves do. Don't just latch onto the word "top predator" and expound on it to mean us as well.

IF the resources are available, then their rising birth rates can make it very hard to clear them from a large area. But if your top predators are what is sucking up all those resources, which we don't, then....thats different.

Now perhaps if we control hunted/trapped coyotes AND strived to remove as much of their food as we could to lower the carrying capacity K of the environment, we'd see the sort of fluctuating mean that coyotes have around wolf populations. But you're really only thinking of half the situation. Gotta zoom out a little bit man.

The Old Timers made Coyotes pretty scarce and it wasn't by clearing out the Mice and Grasshoppers.

Wolves and Coyotes don't have that much overlap in what they eat.

Fur prices have more influence on Coyote numbers than anything else.

 

[Joel]

The Old Timers made Coyotes pretty scarce and it wasn't by clearing out the Mice and Grasshoppers.

Wolves and Coyotes don't have that much overlap in what they eat.

Fur prices have more influence on Coyote numbers than anything else.

Whats your opinion on the prey overlap based on? Because being reduced to living on mice and grasshoppers cause something else is eating all the better, more high value prey sounds like it really sucks.

Just one case in point.

https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi...ed considerable,amounts of smaller prey items.

Interference competition occurs when two species have similar resource requirements and one species is dominant and can suppress or exclude the subordinate species. Wolves (Canis lupus) and coyotes (C. latrans) are sympatric across much of their range in North America where white-tailed deer (Odocoileus virginianus) can be an important prey species. We assessed the extent of niche overlap between wolves and coyotes using activity, diet, and space use as evidence for interference competition during three periods related to the availability of white-tailed deer fawns in the Upper Great Lakes region of the USA. We assessed activity overlap (Δ) with data from accelerometers onboard global positioning system (GPS) collars worn by wolves (n = 11) and coyotes (n = 13). We analyzed wolf and coyote scat to estimate dietary breadth (B) and food niche overlap (α). We used resource utilization functions (RUFs) with canid GPS location data, white-tailed deer RUFs, ruffed grouse (Bonasa umbellus) and snowshoe hare (Lepus americanus) densities, and landscape covariates to compare population-level space use. Wolves and coyotes exhibited considerable overlap in activity (Δ = 0.86–0.92), diet (B = 3.1–4.9; α = 0.76–1.0), and space use of active and inactive RUFs across time periods. Coyotes relied less on deer as prey compared to wolves and consumed greater amounts of smaller prey items. Coyotes exhibited greater population-level variation in space use compared to wolves. Additionally, while active and inactive, coyotes exhibited greater selection of some land covers as compared to wolves. Our findings lend support for interference competition between wolves and coyotes with significant overlap across resource attributes examined. The mechanisms through which wolves and coyotes coexist appear to be driven largely by how coyotes, a generalist species, exploit narrow differences in resource availability and display greater population-level plasticity in resource use.

Key points there, considerable overlap, coyotes exploit narrow differences in resource ability.


If you do not think that is true, or think thats an easy situation in which to avoid being suppressed....you can certainly build that case. Your opinions are not a case though, and the weight of evidence may well be against you in that one. But if you can, hats off.

 

[MiG25]

Whats your opinion on the prey overlap based on? Because being reduced to living on mice and grasshoppers cause something else is eating all the better, more high value prey sounds like it really sucks.

Just one case in point.

https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi...ed considerable,amounts of smaller prey items.




Key points there, considerable overlap, coyotes exploit narrow differences in resource ability.


If you do not think that is true, or think thats an easy situation in which to avoid being suppressed....you can certainly build that case. Your opinions are not a case though, and the weight of evidence may well be against you in that one. But if you can, hats off.

A 30-35 lb animal is not a significant predator of Deer (and larger), except of small deer near death in the Winter. They're not reduced to mice and grasshoppers, it is literally their prey base.

They avoid wolves because wolves kill them, not because they're being out competed.

 

[Suther]

A 30-35 lb animal is not a significant predator of Deer (and larger), except of small deer near death in the Winter. They're not reduced to mice and grasshoppers, it is literally their prey base.

They avoid wolves because wolves kill them, not because they're being out competed.

lol because nothing exists in the gap of sizes between deer and mouse...

 

[Joel]

A 30-35 lb animal is not a significant predator of Deer (and larger), except of small deer near death in the Winter. They're not reduced to mice and grasshoppers, it is literally their prey base.

They avoid wolves because wolves kill them, not because they're being out competed.

Because you think so or because that's actually proven and documented in some way?

Although I've always agreed that people shooting coyotes has very limited impact on deer population numbers, just about every coyote hunter wants to believe they are playing a role in conservation and gets triggered about it lol

lol because nothing exists in the gap of sizes between deer and mouse...

Apparently nothing at all! Deer, then mouse, then grasshopper.

 

[bearkilr]

Stop moving the goal posts. You said they would never be as prolific, yet the evidence says otherwise. You said litters are much larger for pigs vs boar, yet evidence says otherwise.

Who cares about most of Canada. 70% of Canadians live BELOW the 49th parallel (Toronto is at 43.something, Montreal at 45.something). 90% live within 100 miles of the US border. Most farmland is in the southern reaches of the country. It doesn't matter what the northern 90% of Canada is like if they are capable of wreaking havoc on the 10% where we actually live and grow crops/livestock.

Do you have any opinions based on evidence, or do you just go with whatever feels right to you?

There is no appreciable feral hog problem outside of areas in the southern US. Then you cite an article about litter size changes from a European study, totally irrelevant. Sure, the litter size of wild boar won't be as big comparing wild boar in arid Turkey to the farmland of Germany. How does that at all correlate to feral hogs in North America?

What do you think the farmland in MB,SK and AB looks like this time of year? Wild boar require a different diet than people. They won't survive in the GTA and Vancouver area.
As for opinion, I used to raise wild boar for over 20 years, so I'm well aware of their habits and litter sizes. Have you ever even seen a wild boar?

 

[Suther]

There is no appreciable feral hog problem outside of areas in the southern US. Then you cite an article about litter size changes from a European study, totally irrelevant. Sure, the litter size of wild boar won't be as big comparing wild boar in arid Turkey to the farmland of Germany. How does that at all correlate to feral hogs in North America?

What do you think the farmland in MB,SK and AB looks like this time of year? Wild boar require a different diet than people. They won't survive in the GTA and Vancouver area.
As for opinion, I used to raise wild boar for over 20 years, so I'm well aware of their habits and litter sizes. Have you ever even seen a wild boar?

Sorry what? Do you think Europe DOESN'T have a hog problem of their own?

Did you not notice that I provided TWO articles about litter size, one for Europe and one for USA?...

 

[MiG25]

lol because nothing exists in the gap of sizes between deer and mouse...

Ok, what are they in the interior of British Columbia? I've seen 2 rabbits my entire life. It's been 30 years since I've seen a porcupine. Grouse are scarce prefering "wet" areas. Most songbirds hang around people. Squirrels live in trees. Gophers hibernate starting August 15.

If someone said Coyotes get 25% of their yearly calories from grasshoppers I'd believe them.

 

[nowarningshot]

Pigs are well insulated and have a wild range into some pretty cold and extreme climates. Extremely destructive to habitat, eating and destroying from underground to six feet high.

There's a large group in northern Ontario. Only known solution is semi truck horns.

 

[bearkilr]

Sorry what? Do you think Europe DOESN'T have a hog problem of their own?

Did you not notice that I provided TWO articles about litter size, one for Europe and one for USA?...

As for them being a problem, that depends on who you talk to. I know many European hunters so I know first hand what the situation is. Like I said, many countries have lived with them for hundreds of years and some have eradicated them, so it's not like they're some super pig that can't be controlled.
In regard to your articles on litter size, I'm going by personal experience of litter sizes here, not some study in a far away place, be it the southern US or Europe.

 

[Callee]

Suther, do you have me on ignore, or what? All your prolific posts. And you still have yet to address my fundamental points:

1. Hunting would be capable of keeping a small, nascent wild pig population in check
2. For populations too large to be controlled by hunting alone, hunting could still be a valuable part of the solution along with other control methods
3. A well-regulated hunting regimen could prevent some of the negative side-effects of hunting that have possibly been seen in other jurisdictions.

 

[zuke]

Pigs are well insulated and have a wild range into some pretty cold and extreme climates. Extremely destructive to habitat, eating and destroying from underground to six feet high.

There's a large group in northern Ontario. Only known solution is semi truck horns.

My I ask, where in Northern Ontario?

 

[Suther]

Suther, do you have me on ignore, or what? All your prolific posts. And you still have yet to address my fundamental points:

1. Hunting would be capable of keeping a small, nascent wild pig population in check
2. For populations too large to be controlled by hunting alone, hunting could still be a valuable part of the solution along with other control methods
3. A well-regulated hunting regimen could prevent some of the negative side-effects of hunting that have possibly been seen in other jurisdictions.

Can you show me one example where hunting has successfully kept a nascent wild population in check? I'm not agreeing with you on your first point until you can prove its true and applicable to the current situation in Canada.

From what I can see, the moment you open hunting you get bad actors who will want the pig hunt to last in perpetuity and will do things to maximize the chances of that, regardless of the law. Also, If you legalize hog hunting people will become economically tied to it through guiding, equipment, or other industries. It doesn't matter what you regulate, there will be people who don't follow those rules, especially because a lot of things you might want to do like put in rules about "you must attempt to kill all pigs in a group", or "you must target females first" is impossible to enforce in the field.


The potential harm caused by opening hunting is massive, and you have to consider the human element. And I'm not sure if you've noticed, but a lot of people suck.

 

[m1008]

As for them being a problem, that depends on who you talk to. I know many European hunters so I know first hand what the situation is. Like I said, many countries have lived with them for hundreds of years and some have eradicated them, so it's not like they're some super pig that can't be controlled.
In regard to your articles on litter size, I'm going by personal experience of litter sizes here, not some study in a far away place, be it the southern US or Europe.

How does litter size of farmed pigs relate to wild populations?

 

[m1008]

A study about coyotes and grasshoppers, interesting read.
https://esajournals.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/ecs2.1481

 

[riversrest]

Can you show me one example where hunting has successfully kept a nascent wild population in check? I'm not agreeing with you on your first point until you can prove its true and applicable to the current situation in Canada.

From what I can see, the moment you open hunting you get bad actors who will want the pig hunt to last in perpetuity and will do things to maximize the chances of that, regardless of the law. Also, If you legalize hog hunting people will become economically tied to it through guiding, equipment, or other industries. It doesn't matter what you regulate, there will be people who don't follow those rules, especially because a lot of things you might want to do like put in rules about "you must attempt to kill all pigs in a group", or "you must target females first" is impossible to enforce in the field.

You have to consider the human element. And I'm not sure if you've noticed, but a lot of people suck.

You basically admit you're against all hunting because of people doing the wrong thing, lol