45-70 vs. 375H&H for up close

This should be more of a question about which gun do you like? Levers or bolts? The 375 has killed a bear for me and I would not hesitate to take a short bbl'd one like the new ruger into bear country. My preference is a 416 and oh look now I can get one of those too. I have used a 45/70 with 405 hand loads to shoot elk and it was terrible. I would not use Rem 405's on anything but paper and squirrels. My wife used a barnes 300gr X on a mule buck and it worked as good as an '06 would. I sold the gun as it was no great improvement over everything else I own. I am getting a 444 to try, so maybe I might try a 45/70 again someday. I would stick with the 375 as you have one and know what it does.
 
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.375vs.416vs..450vs.45-70
« on: November 16, 2006, 02:17:22 PM » Quote

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This was originaly posted in the big bore rifle section but is appropriate here because of the bullets tested. It take a little while to move the data and the pics seem to be gone from the gallery so I will upload to photobucket and re-post them.

Here we go with the photos.
These are the competeting bullets.
The .416 partition was thrown in for reference.


The rifles. LTD-V and Whitworth Express rifle.



First up .375 H&H with 300fmj Hornady @ 2500fps
Penetration total inches----------27.00"
Displaced matter cubic inches---25.43ci
combined score-------------------52.43
retained weight-------------------298.2gr
general comment:
I expected the 300fmj to do well in the penetration test and it did. After passing thru the beef bone it bored a .375 diameter hole without disturbing the media around it. 13" into the media the bullet deflected and turned sideways for the last 10" but didn't disturb that much of the surrounding media. The hole thru the bone looked like it could have been drilled with very little splintering on the exit. Bone spray was isolated to the first two inches of the media face upon entry.

Next at bat 45-70 460cpb. @ 1850fps
Penetration total inches------------17.00"
Displaced matter cubic inches-----55.80ci
combined score---------------------72.80
retained weight----------------------330.7grs
I expected more inches of penetration with this bullet but was I was not prepared for the amount of damage done to the bone or media. Upon impact the whole front of the knuckle exploded tossing bone and rotting meat several feet from the holder. The whole front of the media was covered with the mess. The hole started at .458 and wound up at 3.00". This contraption I'm shooting at weighs around 500lbs and is braced with two 4x4s which are backed up to a tree 18" in diameter. The whole idea being that it wouldn't move upon impact. When the bullet hit the bone the whole thing shook enough to be visable. The bullet penetrated straight. The gas check came off and the nose of the bullet was deformed quite abit.



45-70 380gr Hawk at 1950fps
Penetration total inches-------------12.00"
Displaced matter cubic inches------61.98ci
combined score----------------------73.98"
retained weight-----------------------315.2grs
I had no idea what to expect as far as penetration but figured this bullet would displace the most matter. I was not ready for the impact damage on the bone that it produced. I intentionaly used the biggest bone (one was 1" larger than the rest) for this bullet. When the bullet hit it absolutely destroyed the bone. (pictures later ) The shock to the holder was nothing short of incredible. Bone meat and water went at least 15' into the air. Some of the meat was sprayed on the water tub sitting several feet from the bone. The wound channel was visible from the shooting location. Upon disassembly of the media I expected to find the bullet in several pieces after the violent impact. Much to my surprise I pulled the bullet out in one piece. Bone spray into the media was enough to cause huge trauma to any soft tissue behind it. In short this bullet did exactly what it was designed to do. It will be interesting to see what happens at 2200fps from the #1.




Next up will be the 300gr A-frame at 2500fps from the .375 H&H. I have it in my mind that it will penetrate a little deeper than the 380gr .458 bullet but will not displace as much matter.

So far all of these bullets would have killed a cape buffalo. The 380gr would be my choice on a broad side shot. Comparing the 300fmj to the 460gr is complicated to say the least. In real life I know that the 460gr has shot completely thru cape buff as well as the 300gr fmj. I would probably lean toward the 460 for its mamoth amount of damage. The 300 A-Frame should make a good showing. I know they have been used on buff with good results. Just my way of thinking that 300gr fmj leaving such a small channel and drilling the bone instead of breaking it makes me a little skitish of it except on a desperation shot on a wounded buff heading for the brush.
I am probably going to throw a 550gr Crater from the .450 into the mix. It should make a very good showing also. It is a well constructed bullet and seems plenty hard for big bones. reflex264

Just got done with the math on the A-Frame. Here are the results.

.375 H&H , 300gr Swift A-Frame at 2500fps
Penetrtion total inches----------------12"
Dispaced matter cubic inches--------33.97ci
combined score------------------------45.97
retained weight------------------------253.4grs

comments:
I went into this load expecting more penetration than I got. Already knowing that the load I used has performed well in the field however makes this a great benchmark to evaluate the other loads. The bullet tore up nearly as much bone as the 380gr Hawk but do to hitting the bone about an inch from where I meant to it snapped the smaller section of bone in half. The bullet however did something I didn't expect. The initial wound channel was very good. There is no doubt a critter hit with it thru the leg bone would have very good damage to the lungs. The bone spray was very good with a few larger pieces of bone penetraing into the media. The wound channel reached a crescendo at 5" into the media and as the bullet decelarated the channel spread for the last 2.5" was more ripped than exploded. When we removed the bullet I noticed the core was gone at the back of the bullet. I looked the bullet over very good knowing that the core shouldn't have came out the back of the jacket. It was when I gave a closer look at the front of the bullet that I realized what happened. The core from the back of the bullet actually came thru the partition and was now part of the nose. The jacket peeled from one side and folded down the other side of the bullet. I will post pictures in a few minutes to show it. I certainly don't consider this a failure. These are big bones, maybe bigger than 90% of the buffalo bone they would encounter. The bullet did sufficient damage to kill just about anything.




Well thanks to some enterprizing coyotes I am missing some bones I left out last night. I already called the meat man to get some more.





This was an overview after the test:




I have been looking at the data and trying to come up with an index from the results. So far it has eluded me. Golsovia had a very good comment that bears repeating if not word for word close. The .375 rises and shines when the distance gets to be 200 yards +. That is just good common sense. My thoughts on the 460gr load at 1850fps was to offer more power down range. I still think this is a good thing but still plan on slowing it down a bit.
If initiating a conflict with a cape or water buffalo at the normal ranges at which they are engaged which load tested would I rather use? I have beat my brains out on this one. The one I can say for certain I wouldn't use for the first shot is the 300gr fmj. I am sure that there are few better choices to send thru the nose on an oncoming buff but from the info I can gather all PH's prefer the same shot for the first shot. One third up the body from the backside of the front leg. When looking at the anatomy charts on these big critters the knuckle which the 300gr A-Frame, 380gr Hawk and 460gr CPB all destroyed is located below that point. The joining bone closest to the desired impact area is approximatly 3" in diameter and has a wall thickness of 1"(actually measured on a cape buff). I can't see that bone being any tougher than the 4" to 5" knuckles I used.
The 300 A-Frame, 460CPB and 380 Hawk all would have broke this bone and by the looks of the fragmentation of bone would have left a major wound thru the lungs and cut the large arteries at the top of the heart. One of the gents I have discussed water buff hunting with guides cape buff hunts in Africa. He said the water buff with its larger body once wounded was as hard or harder to put down than its African cousin. He also said if hit good with the first shot it was easier to put down than the cape buff. I know it's beating a dead horse but I think it all comes down to Jayco's signiture, "A good bullet in the right place".
I am going to think about what constitutes a bullet failure also. The A-Frame actually did a good job despite the fact that its nose broke over instead of making a pretty mushroom. The rear core came thru the partition to the front of the bullet but did it really hurt anything? The bullet still weighed 253.4grs and was very solid. It still penetrated some very stiff media and sent bone fragments out like little missles. I guess I'd like to know more from people that have used this bullet on buff.
The Hawk won the overall score (penetration + CI wound volume) and managed to send bone not only thru the media but chunks into the air and a visible punch to the artificial buff. The bullet came out intact but I have since pulled it apart to see what made it tick. The jacket on this bullet is pure copper and tough instead of brittle. I have been playing with it for a year and already figured out that it was good. The wound channel was huge to say the least. There are several reasons for this. The bullet did exactly what Andy told me it would do. The soft but tough bullet upon impact is supposed to conform to the bone then push the bone straight back. Near as I can tell that is exactly what happened. The bullet then hit the media with a very large frontal area causing the massive wound.
Which one won? Personaly I think that the 380gr Hawk out to 150 Yards would be the winner. Past 150 yards the A-Frame would get the nod. Is that a political answer or what? Either of these bullets would do the job and I guess thats all that really matters. Just my thoughts. reflex264

The .450 added later:



Now the numbers.

405gr Magnus
penetration-24"
wound volume-42.54
combined score-66.54

420gr Crater Lite
penetration-28"
wound volume-63.31
combined score-91.31

460gr CPB
penetration-31"
wound volume-61.61
combined score-92.61

550gr Crater
penetration-41"
wound volume-44.36
combined score-88.36

.416 Nosler Partition fired from the .416 Taylor at 2400fps


Retained weight: 323.9grs
depth of penitration: 29"
matter displaced: 64ci
combined score: 93

Notes:
This was the most impressive showing yet. Upon entering the media the channel opened quickly making the first part of the damage a huge cone shaped cavern that reached a crescendo of 5" then as the bullet slowed down a very straight channel until the bullet stopped in the dry part of the media. The bullet appeared to have traveled nose forward until about the last 2".

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Hope this works

Cheers

Seabass
 
Up close the 45/70 is a good killer and having looked inside animals killed by it it makes a nice mess of the internals. I would suggest it is similar to the disruption of a 338 and depending on the bullet maybe even the 375.

From what I have seen the 45/70 falls behind a 375 loaded with the TSX. In all honesty it might be a combination of a fast 375 (375 Ultra) mixed with the TSX, but I have yet to shoot anything with a standard velocity (H&H) driven TSX.

The post by Seabass is interesting, but in the real world the 45/70 has little resemblance to the killing power exhibited by the 416/400gr/2400fps. The 416 postmortem inspection generally looks like a giant vat of tomato soup. Game shot with the 416 behaves like it has been crushed....The animal may take a step or two (mine never have), but the effect is unmistakable. Everybody I have ever talked to using a 416 is shocked by the outcome the first time they drill something with a 416.

Not saying the 45/70 isn't enough gun, with the right bullet it certainly is. What I am saying is that the 45/70 is a killer while the 416 is a crusher. The difference on big tough game is unmistakable.
 
X-fan said:
Up close the 45/70 is a good killer and having looked inside animals killed by it it makes a nice mess of the internals. I would suggest it is similar to the disruption of a 338 and depending on the bullet maybe even the 375.

From what I have seen the 45/70 falls behind a 375 loaded with the TSX. In all honesty it might be a combination of a fast 375 (375 Ultra) mixed with the TSX, but I have yet to shoot anything with a standard velocity (H&H) driven TSX.

The post by Seabass is interesting, but in the real world the 45/70 has little resemblance to the killing power exhibited by the 416/400gr/2400fps. The 416 postmortem inspection generally looks like a giant vat of tomato soup. Game shot with the 416 behaves like it has been crushed....The animal may take a step or two (mine never have), but the effect is unmistakable. Everybody I have ever talked to using a 416 is shocked by the outcome the first time they drill something with a 416.

Not saying the 45/70 isn't enough gun, with the right bullet it certainly is. What I am saying is that the 45/70 is a killer while the 416 is a crusher. The difference on big tough game is unmistakable.
Click to expand...

Absolutly dead on. People say the standard calibers kill Moose and Elk just fine, that may be true but a .416 kills way, way better than just fine.
 
Seabass said:
I wonder how the 375 Swift A-frame and TSX compare to each other?
Click to expand...
Click to expand...

My experience with both bullets in the .375 H&H is that the A-Frame clobbers animals, while the TSX just kills them. Often that makes the difference between "The tracker thinks you may have hit it" and "KERWHOOOOMP, uh get the truck" with the same hit. Vastly favoring the second result, I don't use TSXs anymore. The TSXs should penetrate more, but in this caliber thats just the difference between "more than enough" and "way more than enough" on most game. On the largest game that softs are still an option for,(Think buffalo here) there can be very real advantages to keeping your shots inside the animal in herd situations, and that is pretty hard to do with a TSX. Hitting the buffalo behind "your" buffalo is an expensive ooops.
For trying to kill small critters without blowing them wide open, the TSX is about as good as it gets.
 
Gatehouse said:
I am sure they both work well...But watching Saeed's many videos of him shooting buffalo with 300gr X bullets and seeing them drop in their tracks makes me think the TSX will work well.:p:D
Click to expand...

Nobody said they don't work well. Somebody did ask about the difference. Shoot an animal through both shoulders and they tend to fall down.
 
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Funny, I thought my 45/70 was enough gun. I have seen it bodyslam an Elk, flip bears, etc.


Oh well...

some will continue to compare apples to oranges I suppose.
200-300 yrd rifles with flat trajectories, to rifles better suited to inside 150 yrds.

For a bush gun, a quick handling 45/70 is all will ever need...

350-GR WOODLEIGH WELD-CORE JSP AT 2000-FPS

350 gr. J.F.N. (2150 fps / M.E. 3592 ft. lbs.)

300gr. Speer Uni Core @ 2350 fps (3678 ft. lbs.)

405 gr. J.F.N. (2000 fps / M.E. 3597 ft. lbs.)

430 gr. L.B.T.- L.F.N. - G.C. (1925 fps / M.E. 3537 ft. lbs.)

Nosler Partition 300 gr 2367 fps 3733 ft lbs
 
I beileve the test I posted speaks for itself. It is a good read for anyone and commends all calibers, 375, 416, and 45/70 all with primium bullets that make all of these good choices for buffalo and similar sized game.(no bear talk again please:rolleyes:).

I wanted to post this on behalf of those that were under the impression that a 45/70 with heavy cast bullet, big meplat, could not only penitrates further than a .375 fmj or A-frame but causes a large wound channel dispelling that it only create a .45 hole threw an animal. I think those judging the 45/70 are doing so based off anemic factory offerings and may not be aware of its true potiental.

Cheers

Seabass
 
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