45-70 vs. 375H&H for up close

Gatehouse said:
I am sure they both work well...But watching Saeed's many videos of him shooting buffalo with 300gr X bullets and seeing them drop in their tracks makes me think the TSX will work well.:p:D
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There is a big difference between an X bullet and the newer TSX...Especially where it comes to penetration...Where there really is no comparison.
While the new TSX is more impressive on deer sized game the old X was capable of unbelievable penetration.

The X was an African wonder bullet where as the TSX is an American marketing wonder.....If you know what I mean. ;)
 
X-fan said:
There is a big difference between an X bullet and the newer TSX...Especially where it comes to penetration...Where there really is no comparison.
While the new TSX is more impressive on deer sized game the old X was capable of unbelievable penetration.

The X was an African wonder bullet where as the TSX is an American marketing wonder.....If you know what I mean. ;)
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You're the first person I've heard from that says the penetrative abilities of the TSX has been lacking- especially to the point that it performs poorly on game.

You must have had a bad experience with a TSX not penetrating well on African game?
 
Seabass said:
.............. I think those judging the 45/70 are doing so based off anemic factory offerings and may not be aware of its true potiental.

Cheers

Seabass
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The 45/70 my hunting partners and I hunt with is in a Ruger #1. I have also played around with a 78Browning and a few levers. I was shooting game with the 45/70 long before the guide gun fad came in to existence.

I am well aware of the cartridges respectable killing power, but also having killed game with the 416 and (Remington and Rigby) the difference is painfully obvious.

No disrespect intended to you or your interesting post, but I suggest you try one for yourself so you can see for yourself what all the hubbub is about.

Just to put my money where my mouth is I have a Stainless Shilen chambered by Guntech in 416Rem (shoots right around an inch with almost any decent load) that I would give to the right guy....
Screw it on to any magnum Remington action....Then go kill some game and tell me I'm wrong.;)

Send me a PM and I'll ship it out to you.
I'm daring you!! :D :D
 
Gatehouse said:
You're the first person I've heard from that says the penetrative abilities of the TSX has been lacking- especially to the point that it performs poorly on game.

You must have had a bad experience with a TSX not penetrating well on African game?
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No it has performed well on game, but I have recovered too many of them. The old X was less dramatic, but I almost always got 2 holes.

I would not expect a TSX to be able to make Texas heart shot on a big moose and have it make it to the vitals...The old X would exit the chest.
 
I've never taken a THS with a X or TSX on a moose, so I couldn't say. I know that a .338 250gr Nosler Partiton will get to the vitals on a moose via the rear, though!:)
 
X-fan said:
The 45/70 my hunting partners and I hunt with is in a Ruger #1. I have also played around with a 78Browning and a few levers. I was shooting game with the 45/70 long before the guide gun fad came in to existence.

I am well aware of the cartridges respectable killing power, but also having killed game with the 416 and (Remington and Rigby) the difference is painfully obvious.

No disrespect intended to you or your interesting post, but I suggest you try one for yourself so you can see for yourself what all the hubbub is about.

Just to put my money where my mouth is I have a Stainless Shilen chambered by Guntech in 416Rem (shoots right around an inch with almost any decent load) that I would give to the right guy....
Screw it on to any magnum Remington action....Then go kill some game and tell me I'm wrong.;)

Send me a PM and I'll ship it out to you.
I'm daring you!! :D :D
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The original post was between the 375 and 45/70 for up close. As not many people had any info on behalf of the 45/70 I posted the above test. The 375 has a much longer history than the 45/70 in Africa and is more well known around campfires here in NA or Africa. I was just leveling the playing field with some current numbers.

I didn't post this so we could debate 416talyor and 45/70 although there was a test in there about it which it performed very well, top of the class. What I can't see is how is how a 416 could have such a drastic effect on game you claim over a heavily loaded 45/70 at 40,000 or 50,000 cup. A 420gr or 460gr .458 bullet at 1800fps vs a 400gr .416 @ 2400. Go back to the numbers, very similar results. Both very lethal calibers with the 416 getting the better trajectory further out.

Don't forget the 550gr hardcast 45/70 at an lowly 1500fps outpenitrated the 416 Taylor 400gr Nosler Partition by a foot (12in). Thats nothing to sneeze at.

To wrap it up, all the calibers mentioned with good bullets are good at what they do. To restate what I said ealier, I was throwing some info out there for others to read and come up with their own conclusions.

Hope you enjoyed the test

Cheers

Seabass
 
X-fan said:
I was shooting game with the 45/70 long before the guide gun fad came in to existence.

I am well aware of the cartridges respectable killing power, but also having killed game with the 416 and (Remington and Rigby) the difference is painfully obvious.

No disrespect intended to you or your interesting post, but I suggest you try one for yourself so you can see for yourself what all the hubbub is about.
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I don't think anyone here is suggesting that the 45-70 is comparable to the 416 Taylor/Reminton/Rigby. The controversy seems to be more over how the 375 H&H and the 45-70 stack up against each other 'up close'.
 
I'd be more concerned with the rifle than the caliber.

I'd take a 30-30 Trapper over a 26" barrelled Weatherby in the bush.

Interesting discussion on the old vs. new 416 X's.

Picked up a 416 Rem a while ago and I have about 5 boxes of the old 350 X's
along with some 300 X's and 350 TSX's. Might have to try some penetration tests?
I also have 3 boxes of 400 Noslers which I'm hoping shoot well, I'm biased for the Noslers. I've heard they're an extremely tough bullet.

Wasn't Demonical on here going to attempt some penetration tests with a 416?
 
Pickles,
Demonical did do his tests, but my memory is a little fuzzy as to the results. I do remember that the 400 grain Banded solid had about double the penetration of any of the softs. Maybe he can be persuaded to pull the thread up where we can see it.

Oh, your old .416 kills elephants.;)
 
X-fan said:
No it has performed well on game, but I have recovered too many of them. The old X was less dramatic, but I almost always got 2 holes.

I would not expect a TSX to be able to make Texas heart shot on a big moose and have it make it to the vitals...The old X would exit the chest.
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I was digging around in the shop today, and looked in my can of recovered bullets. Some were from game, some were from range testing.

Looking at the TSX and the X bullets, I saw:

Most bullets expanded as normal, with petals peeled back like in a Barnes ad.

Almost all TSX retained all thier petals. most of the X lost at least one.

I was using heavier X bullets back then- 160gr X instead of 140gr TSX, 180 gr X instad of 150gr TTSX, etc.

The TSX bullets are supposed expand easier, but they end up with similar diameter expansion in the same caliber. I'd guess earlier expansion could possibly make them penetrate less.

I still don't recover too many TSX bullets though, and when I do it's from a diagonal end to end or an end to end shot, and it's usually rigth under the skin. Haven't tried an end ot end shot on a big moose though. Need to find a big moose to shot one of these days!;)
 
I think the old X's loosing the odd petal actually helped penetration.

I shot a nice big coastal bear in the chest (300gr X 416 Rem) and found the bullet in the the hide of the rear ham as we skun it out. I never recovered a 225gr X in all the years (over 10) that I packed my 340Wby. You can imagine I was surprised to recover a pair of 270gr 375 TSX from broadside small moose (a Bartel Bullwinkle :D).....Maybe it is just the .375 270gr TSX?
 
X-fan said:
I think the old X's loosing the odd petal actually helped penetration.

I shot a nice big coastal bear in the chest (300gr X 416 Rem) and found the bullet in the the hide of the rear ham as we skun it out. I never recovered a 225gr X in all the years (over 10) that I packed my 340Wby. You can imagine I was surprised to recover a pair of 270gr 375 TSX from broadside small moose (a Bartel Bullwinkle :D).....Maybe it is just the .375 270gr TSX?
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Could be something wrong with it! I've read here that it didn't expand on a moose, and now that is didn't penetrate...And I've read on Afircan & Alaskan forums how they love the 270gr TSX! I really don't know what to think! :confused:

I picked up one of mine at the range the other day, it had expanded almost fully, into snow at 200 yards.

I think if/when makes a 250gr TTSX .375 bullet, it might be the best one for most North American hunters- Better BC, higher velocity, good for up close and far away.:)

I've got 2 recovered 300gr Nosler Partitons, shot into the spine of a big record book black bear. Killed the hell out of the bear, smashed the spine, but also stopped on the spine...

Sometimes I don't know what the heck to think about bullets;)
 
My buddy likes the 250X out of his 375 Wby and made no complaints when he switched to the TSX...
The 260 and 300gr Partitions are awesome bullets.
I've never recovered a 300, but my buddy shot a buff (bison) with a 260 and near as we could tell it penetrated between 4 and 5 feet before it stopped in the guts up against the spine!...Doesn't get much better than that.

Though I have never used it myself there is also a lot to be said for the 260 Accubond...Could be worth trying in the Ruger.

Did you see the size of the monster Bullwinkle Bartel took with a 416....Good thing he used enough gun LOL! :D
 
I killed a black bear (5ft 6") with the 260AB. Chest shot, penetrated full length of bear, I found it while skinning the ass end. It's quite accurate in my 375 Ruger, too. Story is on here somehwere, it's claled 375 Ruger meets Black Bear or something liek that.

Supercub shot a smallish eastern moose wiht the 260AB, 2 broadside shots and they didn't exit.:)

Bartells moose looks tasty!:evil:
 
Gatehouse said:
Supercub shot a smallish eastern moose wiht the 260AB, 2 broadside shots and they didn't exit.:)
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...... which was very surprising as it was a very small moose at close range, about 100yds.

375Nosler08moose006.jpg
 
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