POL/PAL for antiques?

[Win 38-55]

It would be good to get someone who does not have a PAL or POL to email and ask for an antique letter for some antique on the web that is for sale, say in the USA. Then see what they say when that person tells them that he/she does not have a PAL or POL.

It might be an idea from now on to get someone else to get the letter for you who didn't mind doing it. (I must say that I am sorely tempted by David Doyle's offer, if he would change the case of beer to a bottle of Scotch.) There is nothing illegal about that. Or another idea is that when they ask for PAL or POL, just tell them you prefer to keep that information private.

I can see that if they implement this, that there will be a lot fewer requests for antique letters. A better route would be to simply make your own letter that quotes the relevant portion of the law, and that both quotes and includes a reference that shows that your antique is indeed an antique and carry that around instead. One side of one page; just as handy as an antique letter.

 

[H Wally]

What happens if they ask for your PAL and you just say you don't have one..... legally, there's no problem there. I bet initially if you fought with them they'd let it go. If a lot of people started doing it they'd probably change the laws and make it mandatory to have a liscence. Lose lose situation.

 

[Win 38-55]

What happens if they ask for your PAL and you just say you don't have one..... legally, there's no problem there.

There could be a problem if you have one and tell them you do not have one. In general, giving false information to the authorities is something that a fellow wants to stay away from. It is better to state that you prefer to keep your personal information private, and see what they say.

 

[david doyle]

change the case of beer to a bottle of Scotch

With you fine sir I'd be happy to share a bottle of 18 year old any evening. Letters aside should you ever get north of Prince George and West of Edmonton let me know. I have a good source of spring water and some comfortable chairs.

 

[nessy357]

There could be a problem if you have one and tell them you do not have one. In general, giving false information to the authorities is something that a fellow wants to stay away from. It is better to state that you prefer to keep your personal information private, and see what they say.

Good point, that would be more prudent.

 

[Win 38-55]

With you fine sir I'd be happy to share a bottle of 18 year old any evening. Letters aside should you ever get north of Prince George and West of Edmonton let me know. I have a good source of spring water and some comfortable chairs.

Thank you for the invitation and I'll look forward to it should I ever venture into that distant part of the country.

 

[oldiron]

Any antique I have imported from the USA has "Prescribed antique in both country of origin and destination" on the package, and a full description as to make, model, cal, year, action type, and anything else thought of in with the shipping docs. I have faxed the description to the seller at times. I haven't had a letter, or a problem. (so far)...

 

[tonyg]

the key word here is MOMENT. Glad your such a toughguy, I am a bit spineless and prone to pissingmyself.

No tough guy here David , ( and I doubt you are as you describe) just an individual who is following the law as it stands today.
I can request a letter anytime , even for an antique I don't yet own. Perhaps as some on here do when buying offshore.
If they sent me a letter tomorrow requesting that I register any antiques , I would decline as I am not required to by law. Why would anyone volunteer to do so ?
Once the very few registered firearms I own are gone , I may even let my RPAL expire and not re-new it , I'd rather be off the radar completely except for some old legal iron.

Once the lieberals get back in as they will one day , the laws and regs may change regards ownership of old iron. Hopefully I will be too old to care by then....

PS. We often weigh the consequences of our actions by what we stand to lose. My 'collection ' is not worth a case of good scotch in my mind , so for me , meh.....;>)

 

[guess_kto]

None of my antiques have letters, dont need them, dont want them.

and I would never ask for them... current forced non-restricted Registration is stupid and will result in confiscation one day, so "self-registration" with those letters looks totally idiotic in my opinion...

 

[guess_kto]

What happens if they ask for your PAL and you just say you don't have one..... legally, there's no problem there. I bet initially if you fought with them they'd let it go. If a lot of people started doing it they'd probably change the laws and make it mandatory to have a liscence. Lose lose situation.

I think their database gives them a chance to tie some information together, e.g. you can probably attach list of firearms without registration certificate number. Do you think it's a joke? The officially sponsored "end of registration" bills was set in a such way that you would still have to provide CFC info about transfers and serial numbers along with new owner PAL number, but you don't have to worry about reg. certificates. Why? Simple, you don't need them to keep the complete information on government owned computer database...

 

[david doyle]

Once the very few registered firearms I own are gone , I may even let my RPAL expire and not re-new it

I agree once I leave big field and mountain country a 45-70 or 43 mauser , a 32RF and a nice 24 gauge would take care of my hunting needs and a 455/44russian would take care of the plinking fun.

 

[BrotherRockeye]

the RCMP asked for my PAL when I requested a letter for my S&W...found that a little disturbing,so anything I import now comes with a letter of authenticity from the source and a Compliance(to Canadian law)letter.

 

[762mm]

and I would never ask for them... current forced non-restricted Registration is stupid and will result in confiscation one day, so "self-registration" with those letters looks totally idiotic in my opinion...

And could you please explain how on earth they can confiscate something that they can't prove you have? Here's a little something from the RCMP'S site:

http://www.rcmp-grc.gc.ca/cfp-pcaf/fs-fd/antique-historique-eng.htm

Licensing and Registration Requirements

If you own only antique firearms you do not need to:

* get a firearms licence; or
* register any of your antique firearms.

Selling Antique Firearms

There are no restrictions on selling, buying, bartering or giving away your antique firearms.

Please pay PARTICULAR ATTENTION to the "Selling Antique Firearms" section. what do you read? Now repeat after me:

"There are no restrictions on selling, buying, bartering or giving away your antique firearms". Got it?

So, how on earth can they even start looking for something that can theoretically move freely around the country by exchanging hands every day, or even multiple times a day with no record being held of these exchanges? If you give me an even remotely plausible answer, I'll freaking MAIL YOU A CASE OF SCOTCH! If not... then ease off the paranoia or please be quiet!

 

[Win 38-55]

An entire case of Scotch!!!! Man, if only I knew the answer to that question!

 

[762mm]

After giving this some further thought and, because I am somewhat familiar with the internal works & decision making within a government (no further comment on that), I believe this is the reason behind everything:

Given the RCMP has grown very concerned about the *possible* loss of the long-firearms registry (and even attempted/did some last minute behind-the-door type of reclassifications on certain types of firearms), their best bet right now is to EXPAND the system or at least feed the government with some examples of how it's being used creatively.

So, why would they request an POL/PAL/RPAL for an antique letter, you ask? To me, it is very clear that the ONLY reason behind this is to do a survey of how many licensed people buy antiques versus how many unlicensed people attempt to get their hands on these guns. Once they can establish some workable numbers, they can always claim that there *may* be a problem: too many people are buying "working guns" without a license. Now... we all know that licensing is NOT required for now... but maybe the RCMP is aiming at changing that with some creative numbers & statistics.


So, what shall we do in order to sh*t-can their new operation? There are two answers:

1) Do not apply for an antique letter if you don't have a license or have a friend with a license apply for the letter.

2) If you do apply for an antique letter because you have a license, make sure to give them the license information.


The basis for this is more Liberal bullsh*t. If the numbers show "alarming" amounts of unregistered and license free guns around, then they have a good case to present before the NEXT government.

Besides, a couple of months ago, Wendy had an appearance on TV (most likely CBC) where she and her corrupt friends were talking against antiques being free of registration & licensing. Can you put those two together now?

 

[david doyle]

There are no restrictions on selling, buying, bartering or giving away your antique firearms". Got it?

repeat after me THERE ARE RESTRICTIONS. Provide someone whom you know has a firearms prohibition, someone who it is reasonable to assume is intent on commiting a crime, or a minor, with an antique and see what happens. I can think of other scenarios where you could be found crimminally responsible or Liable as well but why give away creative paranoia when so many civil servants need to make a living.

So, how on earth can they even start looking for something that can theoretically move freely around the country by exchanging hands every day, or even multiple times a day with no record being held of these exchanges? If you give me an even remotely plausible answer, I'll freaking MAIL YOU A CASE OF SCOTCH! If not... then ease off the paranoia or please be quiet!

Couple weeks ago you were not requested to give a PAL/POL# now you do. Those are the only known facts interpret as you may.

To answer your question it is very easy to start looking. " Mr X your ex spouse, nieghbour etc has lodged a complaint (or that drunk that you defended yourself from is pressing assault charges because you won etc etc) We are going to ask that you store your firearms with us until things get sorted out........."
This happens all over the country every day. The officers involved would be grossly negligent if they did not take measures to confirm that the registered antique was no longer in your possession. two options exist tell them where it went or not. Choose the second option and you better have a lawyer who is already retained and already familiar with the regs regarding antiques. You are going to have a hard time finding sympathy anywhere when an officer is being pressed to confirm the loacation of your antique cartridge revolver and you can't answer. If no record exists there is no harm and no foul but if a record exists then those charged with public saftey are obligated to follow up. (as they should)

Is that Paranoia?

with regards to the Quiet request use the IGNORE function if it matters that much.

 

[david doyle]

After giving this some further thought and, because I am somewhat familiar with the internal works & decision making within a government (no further comment on that), I believe this is the reason behind everything:

Given the RCMP has grown very concerned about the *possible* loss of the long-firearms registry (and even attempted/did some last minute behind-the-door type of reclassifications on certain types of firearms), their best bet right now is to EXPAND the system or at least feed the government with some examples of how it's being used creatively.

So, why would they request an POL/PAL/RPAL for an antique letter, you ask? To me, it is very clear that the ONLY reason behind this is to do a survey of how many licensed people buy antiques versus how many unlicensed people attempt to get their hands on these guns. Once they can establish some workable numbers, they can always claim that there *may* be a problem: too many people are buying "antiques" without a license, despite the fact that they're not officially recognized as antique dealers or collectors. Now... we all know that licensing is NOT required... but maybe the RCMP is aiming at changing that with some creative numbers & statistics.

So, what shall we do in order to sh*t can their new operation? There are two answers:

1) Do not apply for an antique letter if you don't have a license or have a friend with a license do it for you.

2) If you do apply for an antique letter, make sure to give them the license information.

The basis for this is more Liberal bullsh*t. If the numbers show "alarming" amounts of unregistered and license free guns around, then they have a good case to present before the NEXT government.

ANd who is paranoid LOL. Great disscussion.

the *possible* loss of the long-firearms registry

I find it very unbelievable that they feel that is likley. Laughable really. If I thought the GRC was populated by idiots maybe I could buy it but no thinking person could find any evidence that an end to the registry is anything more then election promise crap. Twice the grass roots conservative canadian was made to look like a dupe and I am sure the GRC know that is all there is to it.

 

[762mm]

ANd who is paranoid LOL.

Not paranoia, just trying to see what may lie behind this. I still maintain my position that CONFISCATION is impossible under the current law. Apply for a letter today and tomorrow they can't prove you still have the gun... at all!

What I'm trying to say is that the RCMP is trying to survey the country in order to find out how many unlicensed people are buying antique guns. With that information, should it turn out to be "alarming" (as we can guess that it obviously will, since it's coming from the Liberals' lap dogs), they'll be able to influence quite a few spineless politicians... and the chiefs of police score another one.

with regards to the Quiet request use the IGNORE function if it matters that much

Euh.. no. Although you sound like you got bitten by a pissed of raccoon (or wife ) tonight, I don't believe that I should be putting you (or anyone) on that list. It was meant to be a joke and besides... sometimes obnoxious people still have valid & interesting things to say. Peace.

P.S. That was meant as a joke too...

 

[john@]

Following up on the scenario David already outlined here is another angle. You sell your lettered antique to a guy you dont know, he may sell it and who knows how much it moves around. At some point it gets used in a violent incident and gets recoverd by the police, you are the only person they can tie to it, now the gangs and guns unit is asking you to voluntarily come in for questioning, are you going to refuse? They might ask to see your registered firearms, just to be sure you dont have the other gun that was used in the violent incident but was not recovered. I can think of many remotely plausible reasons why you do not want your name on record for a firearm that can travel freely from hand to hand.

So, how on earth can they even start looking for something that can theoretically move freely around the country by exchanging hands every day, or even multiple times a day with no record being held of these exchanges? If you give me an even remotely plausible answer, I'll freaking MAIL YOU A CASE OF SCOTCH! If not... then ease off the paranoia or please be quiet!

 

[david doyle]

Thanks john@ you articulated in a paragraph what 3 pages of my blathering could'nt accomplish. My vote is for john@ to get that case of scotch (and don't try and foist any blended 30 buck a bottle swill off on him)