Firearms restrictions being proposed in Alberta.

[crazy_davey]

Sounds to me like you need a little anger management.

Contrarie to what some people think, there is not an "anti gun person" behind every tree (or cow in this case).

You had better give your head a shake and wake up Duffy. We as hunters and gun enthusiasts are losing ground every day to anti gun folks, tree huggers etc. etc... The list of people against what we do and believe in is huge.

Every year we (hunters and gun owners) lose ground in Canada. If they keep taking away from us, pretty soon we will have nothing left. My suggestion to you is to start getting angry and start fighting back!

 

[Calum]

^ Well said Dave.

What I worry about is hunting in Canada becoming so marginalized that it becomes an elitist sport as in many places in Europe.

 

[chuck nelson]

You had better give your head a shake and wake up Duffy. We as hunters and gun enthusiasts are losing ground every day to anti gun folks, tree huggers etc. etc... The list of people against what we do and believe in is huge.

Every year we (hunters and gun owners) lose ground in Canada. If they keep taking away from us, pretty soon we will have nothing left. My suggestion to you is to start getting angry and start fighting back!

I couldn't agree more.

 

[farshot]

Im my view - the push is steady but never ending:

1. Landowners wish to claim all wildlife on their lands as their own personal property, free to sell or not as they choose. This is of course the model of many European counties. It is the one thing that I do not wish to ever see in Alberta. In many places in Africa - landowners did simply that - they built high fences around a few tens of thousands of acres and claimed all that was trapped within for their use absolutely.

I have asked to hunt large Crown grazing areas (held by a landowner) in South Alberta and have been informed that I may - but I must stay in their hotel for $350 per night (by hotel I mean a used up oil shack). Their cute way to circumvent the no charge for wildlife laws. Do I see the authorities investigating this? no.

2. Some Landowners who hold in their possession Crown Grazing Leases have slowly consoidated their control over this free land for their own use and benefit. Many accept surface rights compensation from oil access that adds up to substantially more than the pitance that they pay for Crown Land. This of course must be changed - the land is owned by the people of Alberta and those Crown Leases must be treated vastly different than how they are now to maximize return to the people of Alberta.

3. I have proposed to agencies in the past that freehold land owners, who claim to own and control their land absolutely in relaity only own a little surface rights (unless they are the few that own mineral rights as well). By grazing cattle or farming the land they own, they actuaully are using up value in that land. The water and the nutrients may not be owned by freehold, fee simple, landowners. Such input variables from the sub-surface may in fact be owned by the Province. In the case of the vast expensive irrigation projects, it is owned by the Province.

Therefore, it is high time Landowners pay a royalty on all production from their lands to the Province as we, the people, have been subsidizing their production from our sub-surface lands for far too long.

The agricultural industry has hidden behind the "family farm" scenario for much too long while bleating their woes to the various governments. In fact, many, many, family farms have been taken over by business concerns based out of the USA or other regions. It is a business - no more- no less.

They are in fact the number one user of potable water in this province. Not the oil industry. They recieve tax grants and waivers for everything possible due to their "family farm" guise and their familiar refrain of if they go under we will all starve to death.

To be fair, I view this proposal as something from a group of relatively well to do landowners and my hard working friends who stuggle to raise cattle or farm are shocked and dismayed by such a load of rubbish from a group that is supposed to represent them.

ABP is another special interest group seeking their own end - no more - no less.

But the day of a subsidized ride in this Province is coming to an end. There is not enough money to go around. The trouble is, once again, it is becoming an us or them scenario.

Many landowners take your licence number of your truck as you drive down the county road and phone the " Secret Report a Poacher Tip Line" and lodge a complaint. Such activity is pure harassment - no different than filing a false police report. I have been phoned by the Willife Officers for just that reason - because I was driving out to visit a friend - but my truck was not recognized by the landowner- so therefore I was "someone hunting illegally".

I would venture to say that the Wildlife Officers spend a fair amount of time reviewing these false "tips" and wasting their precious time.


I would be amazed if this went any further, but I am also amazed that ABP wish to take the risk of venturing down this public relations nightmare trail - only to show themselves as self serving, wealthy, individuals who wish to spend more public dollars in the guise of "safety". All the while they raise and slaughter animals, sometimes in the worst conditions imaginable. Even I have to side with PETA sometimes. Dont throw stones in glass houses.

If any money should be spent - it should be for more officers - not more feel good rules that serve no purpose.

 

[mmattockx]

Im my view - the push is steady but never ending:

Very well said, farshot. As a new hunter in Alberta (long time shooter/gun owner, just got into hunting last year), the grazing leases and how they are used by ranchers and farmers disgust me. Where can I learn more about this issue and who should I be writing to in government to begin to change the rules to something that is more equitable to everyone?

Thanks,
Mark

 

[hillbillyreefer]

Well Farshot, I agree with your stand on the ABP. I've been forced to pay money to these a$$hats for years. Now the check off can be requested back I will be doing that.

As for the rest of your rant you need to buy up some land and go farming. Agricultural commodities are worth the same or less in current dollars than they were back in the seventies, so who is subsidizing who? The best way to make super normal profits is to farm, everyone knows that. That is the reason why agricultural communities are dying off, there is just too much money flowing around.

The main reason there is lots of game to hunt is agricultural stewardship. We don't want to destroy the landscape either. In lots of cases what is good for the game animals is good for the rancher/farmer. In our area there was no deer, elk, moose, bears when my grandparents and parents were young. Now we are overrun with deer, and the others are common enough there are now draw seasons for them. Wonder how that happened? These animals all eat on both deeded and lease land. They compete with our animals for food. Rarely is it a problem, and farmers enjoy seeing these animals as much as city folks.

Oh yeah, food really is made at the supermarket.

 

[waderow]

To Whom it May Concern,

This morning I removed my "I Love Alberta Beef" bumper sticker, and from this morning on, I will not be buying Alberta Beef, or in any way shape or form will I be supporting Alberta Beef Producers.

This stance has been forced upon me be the Alberta Beef Producers, for their recent venture into the Anti-gun lobby, namely the influence of the Provincial Hunting Regulations to enforce a nonsensical notion to have firearms and ammunition in locked cases, and stored separately in a vehicle.

This proposed change is redundant with current legislation and the Canadian Criminal Code, and will only serve to oppress the already oppressed gun owners, sportsman, and subsistence hunters.

Like your organization, I despise "road hunting", but your efforts are misplaced. Your interests would be best served in strengthening the Petty Trespass Act, as the controls on firearm discharge on a road way already exist.

By alienating the gun owners, you have thrust your organization into a confrontation, and I am sure from now on, distasteful videos and pictures from your industry will likely find their way to the internet and media, affecting your industry much like the Bovine Spongiform Encephalopathy problems have previously.

I question your organizations leadership, and upon reading Rick McKnight proposed regulation change from March 31, I, and many others will now turn our backs on the Alberta Beef Producers.

Sincerely,

waderow

 

[farshot]

Yes - if you cant make it farming - get out of it. Dont look to me to subsidize you.

I know its a hard way to make a living as is any underfinanced business. That is why I watch investment conglomerates from New York buying up the farm land and running it with vast amounts of available credit and cash to farm as a business. Food still is grown, and profits are realized or they would not do it.

I have been on both sides of the fence - your line about food growing in supermarkets does not impress me - it is a trite line about how only the family farm will sustain us. I know that food will continue to be grown - maybe not by the people who are on the land now - but by someone who can make it work.

I have watched too many people I know and care about struggle endlessly to make a living on the farm when - if it was a business - it would have been put under long before.

And it is not a rant - it is a scerario that will be visited in this province and others before not too long.

I gave up hunting farm land because of the issues dealing with not just the owners (who are generally very nice and will respect you if you them) - but people in the area that want to stop you and butt in as your going off to hunt on land that you have permission to be. One time a butt head stopped me and my friend in the early morning to lecture me about being a "f--in hunter" and to get lost. We were polite and explained how we have permission etc. until he said he was taking my license number and telling the RCMP that I did this or that (lying in other words). I said go ahead and I will sue him for harrassment and filing a false police report. My friend was less kind and told him to f off or he would kick the crap out of him.

I now hunt crown lands that oil companies deal with. They dont bother you - and funny - there is game there too. Your "land stewardship" by the farmers rings hollow with me also. That land stewardship is why every ditch is cut clean and every slough is filled and farmed. 30 years ago there were ditches filled with grasses and brush - now - someone has to go and cut it for feed while destroying the habitat of the critters that used that area. Sloughs that used to house thusands of ducks are now just moister areas of a field.


The ABP assault is just one more thing.

 

[Morpheus32]

Well, I think sometimes you need to walk a mile in another man's shoes. The ABP have some concerns about the conduct of some "gun owners/hunters" and are seeking a way to resolve the issue....albeit not the approach I would take however, they have problems on the farms of their membership.

I have two family members who have farms. The last two years have seen an incredible increase in truck hunting....that is, shooting from a truck, dashing onto private property to recover the animal and taking off. The "poachers" don't have permission to be on the land, damage crops, leave the carcass in the fields, leave gates open etc. I don't even hunt on the family farm anymore as people are driving all over the place, stealing treestands, blinds, fuel etc.

What your seeing is the frustration that is now boiling over. My relatives do not let anyone hunt on their property now except me....but their is a growing concern over the behavour of some people...around hunting season.

So in the great grade school world we live in, we are all painted with the same brush. They want to stop people tresspassing, shooting into their property, and driving around with loading guns. All of which I might add, I have seen first hand.

So the great question is, how do examine the issue that the ABP have brought up, and how do we ensure responsible behavour? Some will say, enforce the current laws....well that is not working....some would go on about greedy farmers or I am not going to buy beef etc...but at the end of the day, the farmers have concerns which are not being addressed.

Can any of you think of a way to address their concerns while not impeding on our firearm rights. Serious...rants aside, these people are sick of poachers and tresspassers. As I said, seen it first hand season after season.... so what is the fix? The problem exists and the ABP is looking for a solution...

By the way, the ABP feel assaulted by gun owners (poachers) who tresspass and discharge firearms illegally....

So how do we fix it?

 

[Morpheus32]

One other point. I attended a meeting with an oil field company near Edmonton that has a ton of property. In the meetings, access was discussed and comments made on the amount of vandalism this last hunting season, willful damage to property, and problems with hunters. So it is not just the farmers....we as gun owners...that is every gun owner, are not squeeky clean....there are some among us that create the situations that we are now debating...albeit not with the best solution...but definitely an attempt to solve a perceived problem.

 

[Rman]

Well, I think sometimes you need to walk a mile in another man's shoes. The ABP have some concerns about the conduct of some "gun owners/hunters" and are seeking a way to resolve the issue....albeit not the approach I would take however, they have problems on the farms of their membership.

I have two family members who have farms. The last two years have seen an incredible increase in truck hunting....that is, shooting from a truck, dashing onto private property to recover the animal and taking off. The "poachers" don't have permission to be on the land, damage crops, leave the carcass in the fields, leave gates open etc. I don't even hunt on the family farm anymore as people are driving all over the place, stealing treestands, blinds, fuel etc.

What your seeing is the frustration that is now boiling over. My relatives do not let anyone hunt on their property now except me....but their is a growing concern over the behavour of some people...around hunting season.

So in the great grade school world we live in, we are all painted with the same brush. They want to stop people tresspassing, shooting into their property, and driving around with loading guns. All of which I might add, I have seen first hand.

So the great question is, how do examine the issue that the ABP have brought up, and how do we ensure responsible behavour? Some will say, enforce the current laws....well that is not working....some would go on about greedy farmers or I am not going to buy beef etc...but at the end of the day, the farmers have concerns which are not being addressed.

Can any of you think of a way to address their concerns while not impeding on our firearm rights. Serious...rants aside, these people are sick of poachers and tresspassers. As I said, seen it first hand season after season.... so what is the fix? The problem exists and the ABP is looking for a solution...

By the way, the ABP feel assaulted by gun owners (poachers) who tresspass and discharge firearms illegally....

So how do we fix it?

I really can't believe I just read the above. If a farmer doesn't want hunting on his land, HE JUST SAYS SO! IT'S HIS LAND! A hunter has to have permission to be there! If these people are so sick of poachers and tresspassers, why don't they do something about it themselves. They can post signs and god forbid, then can actually patrol their own land, instead of whining and sniveling for someone else to do it for them. A true liberal attitude! I have seen the other side of what you are saying first hand. A few effective patrols via ATV on a Saturday/Sunday will dramatically decrease the amount of poaching and tresspassing that takes place. These farms soon get a reputaition, after a few charges are laid, and no more problems. Why is always up to someone else to take care of a farmers problems?

R.

 

[Toomanyguns]

Could the new law be circumvented by driving in the ditch with gun and ammo unlocked.

No shortage of navigable ditch in wild rose country. lol

 

[Rman]

The new law could be circumvented if these people choose to help themselves, instead of whining for more laws to "protect" them. It's a bad joke called liberalisim, and it's gets worse every day.

R.

 

[waderow]

without question, road hunters are fueling the reasoning behind this. This lazy form of hunting has been creating animosity amongst land owners and hunters for years.
Until that shot is fired out of the window of that truck, there is no laws broken. And furthermore, the poacher needs to be caught red handed, or otherwise witnessed by first hand eye witness, or leave credible evidence behind.
Fish and wildlife do in fact investigate reports, and do in fact stake out troubled areas, but there is a wide spread problem, and usually only one or a few fish and wildlife officers per WMU (sometimes only one officer for 5 or 6 WMU's).
Around my families property near Barrhead, there is INTENSE road hunting. So bad you can spot 20 a night of you are driving around...easily. The locals in the area generally get quite angry with hunters, and I know of a few that actually HATE hunters due to illegal hunting on their land. Active reporting brings in the Wildlife Officers, and with the presence of the LE, a few people get busted, road hunting is curtailed or pushed to another area (albeit briefly) and life goes on.
Often troubled areas will get "stings" set up, with decoy animals and tacti-cooled out cops and fish and game taki1ng things very seriously.

The best way for farmers to deal with road hunting is to report the crimes. Be active and do something instead of whine and stew over it and try to change worthless laws. With more reports, the bureaucrats get their "stats", and therefore allot additional funding as required. If a big enough voice is heard, Fish and Wildlife will get more $ and more $ means more officers, and more officers is what is needed to enforce the hunting laws.

 

[Morpheus32]

I really can't believe I just read the above. If a farmer doesn't want hunting on his land, HE JUST SAYS SO! IT'S HIS LAND! A hunter has to have permission to be there! If these people are so sick of poachers and tresspassers, why don't they do something about it themselves. They can post signs and god forbid, then can actually patrol their own land, instead of whining and sniveling for someone else to do it for them. A true liberal attitude! I have seen the other side of what you are saying first hand. A few effective patrols via ATV on a Saturday/Sunday will dramatically decrease the amount of poaching and tresspassing that takes place. These farms soon get a reputaition, after a few charges are laid, and no more problems. Why is always up to someone else to take care of a farmers problems?

R.

What do you think the farmers do...sit back and cry. Try to think logically instead of emotionally. There is a problem. The association is trying to get action on the problem. I am glad you have the solution and you should present it to the ABP. My Aunt does all that you have mentioned. I have personally call the RCMP and SRD. In one case, a week later....the RCMP came down. The issue at hand is there is not enough resources to deal with the problem. All that you talked about sounds good in theory but is not panning out in execution. I tried all that you mentioned. One of the neighbours had the fence cut by a poacher so he could drive to the animal he shot out in the field that he did not have permission. People are frustrated.

I personally dont support the resolution and none of my family are cattle farmers anymore however I have seen the issues at hand. As waderow said...the argument should be that we should be pushing the government for action on the cause of the issue...rather than enacting some silly regulation. Some of you are flying off the handly decrying rights and freedoms. Waderow has the right approach....over a more workable solution. That at the end of the day is my point. A constructive letter approach, targetting a solution....rather than running a flag up the emotional flag pole...

 

[2fat2fly]

I bet 90% of hunting is road hunting.... This law wont affect me.

I don't understand why you guys have a problem with road hunting. You obviously don't live in a rural area with an over abundance of deer. I prefer road hunters to road kill. Totaled one truck off a couple years ago, and did $7800 damage to my duramax this year. The more road hunters there are, the less deer will hang around roads.

 

[Morpheus32]

The new law could be circumvented if these people choose to help themselves, instead of whining for more laws to "protect" them. It's a bad joke called liberalisim, and it's gets worse every day.

R.

No its call asshats who tresspass, damage property, steal and threaten land owners. The problem lies in how to find a solution to the problem. Just like the argument against the registry is it is ineffective against criminals, so to is this resolution. So our suggest solution, our sound bite, is crime control not gun control. Deal with the criminals.

So moving that to this argument, we should be inundating our elected officials to deal with the already criminal issue of tresspass, firearms discharge, poaching etc and ensuring there are sufficent resources placed to address the problem. That is what we should be stressing...enforce the already in place regulations.

 

[Morpheus32]

I don't understand why you guys have a problem with road hunting. You obviously don't live in a rural area with an over abundance of deer. I prefer road hunters to road kill. Totaled one truck off a couple years ago, and did $7800 damage to my duramax this year. The more road hunters there are, the less deer will hang around roads.

I think some definition is in order. Driving around to spot deer then legally shooting them on land you have permission is not the issue. The truck is allowing them to scout. The concern is people who drive around looking for deer, shoot from their vehicle, then drive onto land they do not have permission and quickly tear off. I have observed it first hand and had to fix the damage caused by it. I don't like hunting my Aunt's farm as I spend most of my time cleaning up after these types of "hunters".

 

[Rman]

There is no doubt in my mind that the solution to this problem is more enforcement. Where the enforcement comes from doesn't matter. If you see someone cutting a fence to retreive an animal, take down the plate number, take a picture, report the crime. And yes, I do think to certain extent that the farmers do sit back and cry. That is why they proposed this "regulation" in the first place. I guess my bottom line is this, if there was something going on, on my property, that I didn't like, I would do something about it. I would get the RCMP and SRD involved, but like you said, they are way under staffed. Pictures, Vid, etc, can go a long ways toward a confiction. The RCMP and SRD can't patrol my land, but I sure as hell can, and many farmers do. These guys get off their butts and get out and patrol. They take pictures, record plate numbers, and record other information, all from a distance, without a confrontation. Make it easy for the cops. Convictions happen based on this evidence. I do my part, and do the same when I see something wrong. It does work. It just has to be consistant. The people that do these things, know that they are doing wrong. They also know where to go to get away with it. I live in Calgary. I am surrounded by private land. The farm I hunt the most allows all hunters. The owner counts on us to police ourselves. There was a problem guy a few years ago, but he was arrested based on information and evidence provided by other hunters. It should be noted that the farm I hunt on is surrounded by land owned by farmers that do not allow hunting. These farms have far more issues of tresspass and poaching than "my" farm does. We do our part, and report this activity to the land owners. Most times, unless a fence is damaged, they choose to do nothing. So the problem continues, as the idiots know what, and where, they can get away with.

R.

 

[Morpheus32]

There is no doubt in my mind that the solution to this problem is more enforcement. Where the enforcement comes from doesn't matter. If you see someone cutting a fence to retreive an animal, take down the plate number, take a picture, report the crime. And yes, I do think to certain extent that the farmers do sit back and cry. That is why they proposed this "regulation" in the first place. I guess my bottom line is this, if there was something going on, on my property, that I didn't like, I would do something about it. I would get the RCMP and SRD involved, but like you said, they are way under staffed. Pictures, Vid, etc, can go a long ways toward a confiction. The RCMP and SRD can't patrol my land, but I sure as hell can, and many farmers do. These guys get off their butts and get out and patrol. They take pictures, record plate numbers, and record other information, all from a distance, without a confrontation. Make it easy for the cops. Convictions happen based on this evidence. I do my part, and do the same when I see something wrong. It does work. It just has to be consistant. The people that do these things, know that they are doing wrong. They also know where to go to get away with it. I live in Calgary. I am surrounded by private land. The farm I hunt the most allows all hunters. The owner counts on us to police ourselves. There was a problem guy a few years ago, but he was arrested based on information and evidence provided by other hunters. It should be noted that the farm I hunt on is surrounded by land owned by farmers that do not allow hunting. These farms have far more issues of tresspass and poaching than "my" farm does. We do our part, and report this activity to the land owners. Most times, unless a fence is damaged, they choose to do nothing. So the problem continues, as the idiots know what, and where, they can get away with.

R.

Again, it sounds all good in theory. I am an army guy. If someone said I had to provide the degree of security you mention, given the size of my Aunt's farm....I would need 2 sections of soldiers near continuously on patrol. The farmers do everything you say. Your painting them with the same size brush your concerned that gun owners are being painted. I had to drive from Edmonton a couple of times last year to deal with dead mule deers in a field. They were busy with harvest and some "hunter" took a hail mary shot on an animal, turned out to be a mule deer which is a draw. They were wounded and you could see the track from the truck that drove through the field damaging crops, noted they were mulies and spun out and left. I had to finish the animals and report it.

Like I said, it sounds easy in principle, the problem is the execution. Enforcement is the issue and it should be pushed in the letters to the minister and the ABP...

Your one of the law abiding, ethical guys...the problem is we are dealing with people who have no problem with what they are doing.