.308 Reloading moa what do to next for submoa?

Well I finally got my replacement chrony and did a few rounds today. I also got my anamometer "Wind Speed" guage... I have one instock in my online store if anyone else is looking for this handy little tool

This is what the reloading manual says.
155 Hornady Amax, IMR 3031
Min 39.5 Grains Velocity 2594 fps
Max 43.2 C Grains Velocity 2832 fps
Using Winchester Brass and Winchester Primers Seated to about 2.900"


Actual Velocity on 20" barrel
2572 fps
2574 fps
2567 fps
2580 fps
2574 fps

Recored at about 7 yards.

Average 2573.4 fps

Nearly 258 fps off the max listed in the manual... is the 20" barrel reducing the feet per second that much.

Also the max load in the manual states that its a compressed load, due to the fact that I have my bullets seated 10 thousands off the lands its not compressed could that account for the 250 fps?

My chrony seems right because my 45's where coming up at about 850 fps and 44's where about 1200 fps which seems right for the charge and bullet weights.
 
msg.drew said:
Average 2573.4 fps

Nearly 258 fps off the max listed in the manual... is the 20" barrel reducing the feet per second that much.

Also the max load in the manual states that its a compressed load, due to the fact that I have my bullets seated 10 thousands off the lands its not compressed could that account for the 250 fps?
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You are loading 0.100" longer than standard magazine length, which will increase the volume in the case, reduce peak pressure attained, and correspondingly reduce muzzle velocity. It's unlikely that this will fully account for the 250fps you are seeing, but it is certainly part of that deficit.

Your barrel is 2-4" shorter than "normal", which is probably worth 20-40fps per inch (so 40fps-160fps). Again, this doesn't explain everything, but it is part of the shortfall.

Another possibility is that your barrel is "slower", perhaps it is half a thou looser than standard. Or your particular powder lot could be on the "cold" side for IMR3031. As long as you are not seeing pressure signs or other signs or warnings of trouble, you might want to judiciously go up a bit hotter (say in 0.3 grain steps).

You only chrono'd five shots, but the difference in MV from the slowest to the fastest is only 13fps. While this doesn't "prove" anything, it certainly does whet the appetite for some more testing, this is a pretty promising (i.e. small) velocity spread.
 
I'v been wait for your comments :) glad you took the time to write me back.

Do you think I should seat them to mag length and go for velocity or work up the load a bit more. Now that I have my chrony I can work on the load a bit.

If you go a few pages back I posted some pics of cracked cases on the neck what do you think its only happened twice so I am guessing its not pressure maybe just defective brass.
 
msg.drew said:
I'v been wait for your comments :) glad you took the time to write me back.
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Sorry, on vacation, ya takes what internets access you gets ;-)

(just to make you jealous, I walked into Scotland at noon today... was really wonderful!)

Do you think I should seat them to mag length and go for velocity or work up the load a bit more. Now that I have my chrony I can work on the load a bit.
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Don't bother with mag length, unless you have some sort of need for shooting mag-length ammo (for example, you want to shoot sniper matches that would benefit from feeding from the magazine). You'l probably get better accuracy at or near the COAL you are at, and you will ultimately get a (little bit) more velocity for a given pressure.

If you go a few pages back I posted some pics of cracked cases on the neck what do you think its only happened twice so I am guessing its not pressure maybe just defective brass.
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Cracked necks are pretty much never a pressure sign. They can be from too much working of the brass, which could be too many firings, or too much expansion/shrinkage on each firing cycle. Or brass that has necks that are too hard (which is more brittle). Cracking necks is a pain, but it is not a warning that you are doing something dangerous.
 
I just got back from testing my over the max limit load and the velocities are up quite a bit. I have all my limbs and my gun didn't blow up so its been a good day :)

I got 40 cronographed loads with an average velocity of 2725 that’s 150 fps up with only .3 grains of powder.

Minimum speed of 2652FPS but this could be some of the old loads I had before.
Maximum speed of 2787FPS I know I was in a rush when I loaded these the charge master overcharges by a grain or two sometimes. It seemed when my barrel was hotter the velocity was also a bit higher.
With the reloader errors removed from the sample the standard deviation was 20

I was checking my brass for signs of pressure and I don't see anything to suggest they are over pressured... bolts opened easy every time.

I also played with bullets touching the lands... due to crops being on I was only able to shoot at my 725 yard target today and after knowing my true velocity and redoing my drop charts... I download a nice little spread sheet for blackberry to calculate the drop it was less then eventful day of shooting... I was battling with windage all day even though there was not much wind according to my new wind gauge less then 5mph when it gusted... I am wondering if my scope is tracking properly or if I should maybe look at getting a one piece base and some tactical rings and remounting it. I also could be that I dead tired from yesterday trying to remove a tree stump and my hands are blistered and muscles are very tired. Plus side I got 40 perfect data points for the new load velocity I have to work on accuracy again. Maybe my gun doesn’t like being seated to lands.
Now that I know my velocity is up i'd better go back to 100 and 200 and shoot some groups and rezero my scope... I am still trying for that tight group at 700 yards but its alot harder then I though :)

Here's my actual data
2720 2700 2739 2729 2741 2723 2728 2706 2699 2738 2720 2719 2702 2731 2750 2779 2787 2717 2739 2703 2736 2733 2720 2742 2758 2731 2744 2765 2701 2731 2694 2700 2705 2734 2753 2705 2719 2736 2652 2660
 
Well gent's I sold the sps tactial so now what? I am thinking of going savage... probally not 308 this time.

Kinda like the specs on this... 22-250 1-9" should be able to fling those 75, 80, 90 grainers about the fastest possible for .224 with out going into some wildcat.

Wholesale sports lists the gun with a 28" barrel which got my attention too but savage says is a 26" so it must have been a typo. Its got a big chunky 1" barrel and trigger from 0.6oz to 2.5lbs

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I am liking the stock on this one but whats up with the barrel end?

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Open to other suggestions got about $1000 to play with for the rifle... if you see anything good in the EE please link me in pm or here.

I'd like to stay with common calibers either .224 or .308 just do to the wide range of easy to get more afordable bullets. Might be able to talk me into something 6mm
 
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308 really can't be beat for "plug and play" or perhaps if you prefer "load 'n shoot"; if the rifle is any good you can get top-notch target accuracy with little to no load development. Pretty much anything else will be more "experimental", not that there's anything wrong with that necessarily. Bad things to say about .308 is that it has more recoil and more cost that other good target cartridges e.g. .223/80, 6BR/105, .22-250/80 etc.

.22-250 1-9" twist is a nice combo. It'll have more noise and blast than a .308 but a lot less recoil. You can shoot 75 and 80 grain target bullets but not 90s, a 1-8" is right on the ragged edge and might or might not be quick enough for the 90s.

It'll "burn out barrels faster" than a 223 or 308 but that is usually overstated and overrated, you will spend way more on bullets powder and gas driving to the range than you'll ever spend on barrel wear.

You should figure on an 80 grain match bullet in the 3200fps neighbourhood if I recall correctly. Varget or a notch or two slower are the sorts of powders you'd use.

One other thing to keep an eye out for is one of the 1-7" twist Savage target rifles, there are one or two models available with this twist. That'll let you shoot the 90s. Dunno whether or not they are available within your $1000 constraint. Likely to be a bit fussy and experimental but probably very good and a lot of fun. If you can get it to shoot accurately, you can smile at the fact that you will be outperforming the very best .308 Palma rifles at 1000 yards in the wind.
 
rnbra-shooter said:
308 really can't be beat for "plug and play" or perhaps if you prefer "load 'n shoot"; if the rifle is any good you can get top-notch target accuracy with little to no load development. Pretty much anything else will be more "experimental", not that there's anything wrong with that necessarily. Bad things to say about .308 is that it has more recoil and more cost that other good target cartridges e.g. .223/80, 6BR/105, .22-250/80 etc.

.22-250 1-9" twist is a nice combo. It'll have more noise and blast than a .308 but a lot less recoil. You can shoot 75 and 80 grain target bullets but not 90s, a 1-8" is right on the ragged edge and might or might not be quick enough for the 90s.

It'll "burn out barrels faster" than a 223 or 308 but that is usually overstated and overrated, you will spend way more on bullets powder and gas driving to the range than you'll ever spend on barrel wear.

You should figure on an 80 grain match bullet in the 3200fps neighbourhood if I recall correctly. Varget or a notch or two slower are the sorts of powders you'd use.

One other thing to keep an eye out for is one of the 1-7" twist Savage target rifles, there are one or two models available with this twist. That'll let you shoot the 90s. Dunno whether or not they are available within your $1000 constraint. Likely to be a bit fussy and experimental but probably very good and a lot of fun. If you can get it to shoot accurately, you can smile at the fact that you will be outperforming the very best .308 Palma rifles at 1000 yards in the wind.
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Well I currently have 223 rifles but none of them are able to shoot anything over 69 grains. Savage makes a 1-7" 223 in the same as that nice black and stainless one above.

As far as 22-250 being a barrel burner I been reading up on these faster .224's and due to the fact that these heavy bullets use less powder then lets say 55 grain varmint hot loads shooting 80's vrs 55's or 53's should be alot easier on the barrel then those light fast varmint bullets. Maybe the others are wrong but thats what I have been seeing.

I was actually tring to find a 223 WSSM because for .224 you couldn't beat the performance it would give for the 80 grain bullets as far as velocity but due to the unpopularness of the caliber its gone... this is where I was reading about it being a barrel burner with 40 grain bullets but with 80 it was alot easier on the barrel. I still haven't ruled a custom 223 WSSM barrel, it would make for a very custom and unique gun. It can fire 80 grainers at 3150fps pretty decent if you ask me.

I am also debating 223 small rifle primers vs 22-250 large rifle primers incase of a shortage... they both kinda disapeared for while so it makes no difference.

I was hoping to pick up a 700 VSF desert in the EE in 308 with a 26" barrel as my next toy but its sold. :(
 
msg.drew said:
I am liking the stock on this one but whats up with the barrel end?

12palma.png
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It (the muzzle) is turned down to accept standard clamp-on iron sights. There are two standard sizes, 0.750" and 0.812" (which is 3/4" and 11/16"). A front sight base slide over and is clamped in place. This rifle would also be drilled and tapped on the left side of the receiver toward the rear, so that you can attach an iron sight base for the rear sight.

If you are using 36 grains of Varget in a .22-250 firing a varmint weight bullet and are getting max safe pressure, you will use less Varget behind an 80 grain match bullet. This will be *slightly* in you favour barrel-life wise but not really much to worth worrying about.


Ordinarily you choose a powder so that it results in a nearly-full, or a just-full, or a just-slightly-compressed load when you are developing maximum pressure with your chosen bullet. This is so that you can get all the performance available from the cartridge case that you have chosen.

Barrel life with 36 grains of ABC powder developing max pressure behind a 55 grain bullet will be just the same as with 36 grains of DEF powder developing max pressure behind an 80 grain bullet.

Choosing more "vanilla" cartridges can be really helpful if there are component shortages (better selection of brass). There is an awful lot of good things to be said about a good .223 target rifle. The meanest thing I can say about them is that they are proportionately more fussy to make amo for than a large cartridge eg a 308
 
I am likeing the 223 1-7" 12 F/TR but if you could get it with the stock on the palma gun it would be perfect in my opinion.

I am still leaning to the 22-250 because you have a significantly higher velocity while pushing the same bullets as the 223.
 
You've got the 308win already, why not just do like me and spin a new barrel on?

I have ordered my 22cal 1 in 9 heavy varmint shilen barrel + 22-250 dies and got my place reserved at the gunsmith, the 308win is going to be turned into a 22-250 by spinning the new barrel on :). Cheaper than getting a new gun. Better results too (if gunsmith is adequate)


EDIT: oh wait you sold the rifle... NVM
 
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I had a different barrel... buying the tools or paying a smith made it financially impossible to justify the cost of swaping the barrel. It was cheaper to sell the gun and buy another thats to the spec I am looking for.... I am slowly working my way up the gun ladder.
 
msg.drew said:
I was holding my breath or trying to control my breath... during shooting. I dont have a lot of time to spend shooting normally try to get out every saturday but its been 3 weeks since I was last out.
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Try some breathing exercise that you shoot on the exhalation.

I was taught to never hold my breath and have my lungs full when shooting but rather take the shot when the lungs are completely empty on the exhalation.

I shoot at what is called the respiratory pause, that moment after full exhalation and before inhalation

Trying to focus on the target with lungs full is much harder and you’re not always at the same position, up or down a bit more or less.
When the lungs are empty you almost always return to the same elevation position and there is no pressure in my chest forcing me to exhale and i don’t feel rushed.
If i take too long to take the shot i simply take another breath ( in a natural manner not exaggerated) and go for the shot again, no rush the paper isn’t going to run away when practising.

Varget has worked nicely for me in my 308 and so has win748
Good luck and happy shoote’n
 
I hardly ever shoot prone so breathing doesn't really affect my position on the gun. I'll give it a try I'll be shooting my 223 tommorow probally. I was under the impression that holding your breath reduces your heart rate... its hard taking a shot when you can see your heart beating in the scope.

If I get another 308 which there is a very good chance I am going to try varget. Seems to be the go too powder for accuracy... I bought 3031 because it was the good old standby allways avalible and its cheaper then the rest and produces good results but if varget is that much better it could be worth the extra money.
 
General wisdom is to hold your breath so you're not moving. You want to hold it at a stress-free place. Fully inhaled and fully exhaled are stressful. The typical recommendation is about half or two thirds of a lungful. You can start your hold either on an inhale or an exhale, your choice. The important thing is to choose something comfortable.

Once you hold your breath you have 5-7 seconds of prime visual acuity; after that the declining oxygen in your blood stream starts to affect your vision. Shortly after that your muscles start to wobble and shake. So you want to stop your breathing as the final step before you apply final trigger pressure.

A very high level coach for whom I have a lot of respect recently told me that when he trains his athletes (mostly Olympic pistol but some rifle too) that they train to never shoot from an arrested breathing state. In the final stage of their aim when they are ready to shoot, they are very slowly and continuously and smoothly letting out their breath.

So it would seem there are several ways to skin the cat...


(BTW Varget is not necessarily more expensive than 3031, and I agree it is very much the go-to powder. Try Higginson's powders in Hawkesbury. Recently I have "discovered" H4895, it might even be a better friend to me than Varget!)
 
When I bought my imr3031 it was about 10 dollars a pound cheaper then varget... I just looked at my new updated 2010 price list... they are only about 3 dollars a pound cheaper now so its not a big deal anymore.
I bought about 8 lbs of imr3031 about 2-3 years ago before all this crazyness happened in the reloading market. Still using it up its been disappearing alot quicker now that I have been shooting 308 for a while.
 
I got a new toy today... and being a remington guy all my life... this savage is quite impressive. It was a difficult choice to leave remington for the first time in a long time but they dont even come close to offering anything like this... I haven't shot it yet but its going to be ready to shoot soon... only beef I have with the gun is the stock the palma gun has a much nicer stock but it also has a much higher price tag.

I got some reloader 15 powder because they where out of varget aparently team savage uses these two powders to dominate competions. If this gun shoots groups that I have been reading about then I am going to be sold.

If it does not outshoot the remington 700 sps I am going to be angry I sold it but I have a feeling this gun will. I guess I will be starting a new thread about this gun.

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