.308 Reloading moa what do to next for submoa?

I am noticed that when I switched stocks I can't get the right torque specs on my bolts. The rear one hits the bolt and the front locks the bolt down.

Good that you noticed that.

As things are right now, your action screws are too long. Their length must be set so that you get lots of thread engagement when they are fully tightened, but that you do not hit the bolt. Hitting, or just *barely* hitting the bolt lug, can give very frustrating vertical in your groups (sound useful/familiar...?)

If your are going to bed the rifle and (I would recommend that you do), do so before you fix this problem.

Once you have bedded the rifle, or decided that you are not going to bed the rifle, here's how you fix this:

Take the action out of the stock. Close the bolt, and determine how deep each action screw can go, from initial thread engagement until when it hits the bolt body. Record this for each screw (front and rear).

(The way I do this is to put the action screw in place, and slowly turn it counterclockwise, noting the exact location that it "clicks" as it jumps over the thread, once per turn. Then I slowly tighten it from the exact location of the "click". I could how many half-turns it takes to bottom the screw)

Put the action back in the stock, and determine how many turns each screw is making as you tighten it - it should be the same number as above, if it is hitting the bolt.

Remove a bit of material from the end of each screw that is hitting - carefully grind some from the end, and use a very small triangular file to maintain the shape of the start of the thread.

You want each screw to be able to tighten up *tight* (with a slotted screwdriver, as tight as you can reaosnably get it by hand without stripping things; with an allen-head action screw, you need to be more reasonable about it!). If you have a torque wrench or have an idea of what it feels like, you want 40 to 60 inch-pounds (note: NOT *FOOT* pounds) of torque.

Continue to adjust the length of each screw so that when fully tightened, there is at least a half turn to a full turn before it is hitting the bolt.



Lets talk about bedding... is there anywhere local to get supplies to bed the rifle? What should I be looking for?

The old houge stock has tubes I guess they call that piller bedding... should I get some steel tubes and epoxy them in my stock before doing the other bedding job?

"Pillar bedding" is one good way (but not the only good way) of bedding a stock, in which a "pillar" of strong material is used to bear the compressive load that the action crews produce. In some styles of pillar bedding jobs, the pillars are used as the sole support points for the action. Materials that have been successfully used for pillars:

- steel tube (sometimes the threaded rod used to hold lamp fixtures!)
- thick-walled aluminum block (an inch or so in diameter)
- "plastic steel" or "plastic aluminum" bedding compound can be used to make "cast" pillars.



Various materials can be used for bedding compounds. Any local shop that sells the full line of Devcon products (e.g. a good auto supply or industrial supplies shop) should be able to get you one pound of any of the following:

Devcon plastic steel
Devcon plastic aluminum
Devcon plastic steel putty
Devcon plastic aluminum putty


The "putty" versions are lower density, they have more bulk (volume) of material per pound, I would get them if you have a choice.

The "aluminum" versions are lower density that the steel; I would get the aluminum version over the steel, given the choice.

All of these are two parts, they have a one pound container of material, and a small container of hardener (a white cream).

You will also need mold release. You can use a spray silicone mold release (use several layers), or you can use Johnson Paste Wax furniture polish, etc. Go look up and read as many articles as you can find on bedding a rifle. Even better, join the ORA and have someone knowledgeable talk you through the whole thing.
 
Bedding of any sort is (potentially) *messy*. If you have a temperment suitable for body work and painting, you are well set to do a good bedding job that will end up neat and looking good. (I sure don't have the right temperment - I can do structurally sound sound bedding jobs that shoot well, but don't enjoy it, and they never end up looking good at all.)

The basic idea with a bedding job (any style), is to prep your action and stock so that the action can be placed in the stock with zero force. Somehow you have to have arranged to have wet bedding compound in all the right places (and even more importantly, *not* in any other places!). The action needs to be lightly but positively held in place until the bedding material has positively cured (e.g. several layers of tape). Once cured, the bedding material now fits the action like a glove, so that when you tighten the action into the stock it is fully supported and not distorted in the process.

Pillar bedding is not superior to other methods, but it is one of the ways to make a first-rate job. If it appeals to you, that's more than a good enough reason to do it that way, it is mechanically straightforward way of doing things. Especially if you have a milling machine (or are willing to fake it with a drill press), you can very much take a "machine shop" approach to your bedding job (otherwise you can take a "wood shop" approach to it).
 
I dont have the time nessary to devote to ORA plus arnt all the events held at ranges hours away from KW area... right now long range shooting is just kinda a hobby nothing more then that.

I know how those targets work they are great...

If you are in the K-W area Borden is 2.5 hours closer to you than it is for me:(Yes I drive 4 hours to Borden to shoot matches, but a couple buddy's drive about an hour and pick me up on the way. So if you do the math they are on the road for 10 hours round trip just to shoot a match, only 8 hours for me. We might do this once or twice a year for one day matches but would rather take in the 2 day matches and camp overnight.

The problem with the sport of long range shooting is the lack of local 1000 yard ranges. In Ontario if you want to shoot a long range competitions you have a choice between Borden and Ottawa. And yes we do drive to Ottawa every year for the DCRA matches, 9 hours each way:(

The ORA isn't all matches, there are plenty of practice days too. There are guys that just come out and shoot practices for a few years, some decide they want to shoot matches, some just stay in practice mode forever and have no desire to compete. Some jump in with both feet, some just dangle their feet in the water. You only get involved as much as you want to, no one is holding a gun to your head to compete.
 
If you have a form6NIA, you can also go to Young's Longshot in Indiana, which is 3 hours from Sarnia or 3.5 from Windsor. Shoot at your leasure on gongs all the way out to 1k, with a 1500 yard range soon to be in the works.
 
I am looking for a 26" or 26"+ maybe with a 2 inch muzzle break or even just a stock remington take off nothing special just to get the velocity up a bit more...

I was out last weekend in the beautiful weather all the snow is gone the fields are all ready dry kicking alot of dust up just from walking... I have stopped testing at 100 yards its to close now :) I was doing 200 and 400 yard testing...

Got some nice organge paint really makes the target stick out now... before they would blend now you don't need a scope to find them...

I am thinking of switching to 155 grain Amax...

First shot 400 yard shot hits the target second shot hits the chain and takes out the target... I had just walked all the way back from painting it orange two shots and had to go back.

I am getting to the point where I can start to exceed 400 yards. :)

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One Minute of Chain at 400 yards probally couldn't do it again on purpose :)
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Nice Backstop.:stirthepot2:

Yah 500 acres of bush its a pretty decent backstop if you ask me... in this area there is low population about 8 people per 1500-2000 acers. There is nothing for 2.3 kilometers behind the target

The steel plate is at a slight downward angle however I was looking at the picture and notice the one shot on the top edge that probally got deflected up. I am using holopoints hits on the plate instantly fragment... you can see them turn to dust.

I am allways very concered about what my bullets are doing down range... I dont really like shooting on private property I would prefer a range but there arnt that many around that are close by.

All my targets are less then 4 feet of the ground if you know your drop you know as long as they dont get deflected upwards they all should hit the ground on my property.

I knew someone would eventually say something about shooting at steel.
 
Well, this is the first time I read your post.

As you noticed above, you are having trouble torquing your screws. All of your pics show very nice groups. The first thing that is obvious is that each pic has two distinct groups. They are very close together but they are definitely different.

This is an indication of two things, bedding, cause may be loose screws, in your case, more than likely. Another reason could be loose scope bases or covers.

Nice looking set up you have there by the way. I'm willing to bet that rifle will shoot tight groups in a fairly wide range of powders and projectiles. From your groups, the rifle was put together right and isn't really fussy. Do you know if your chamber is tight and reamed for Palma or commercial specs, or is it a custom bench rest chamber? You may want to move your ogive a little closer to the lands as well. To far from the lands will cause double groups as well. H4831 wrote a little diatribe on his experiments with bullets seated into the lands and slightly off. No differences in pressures but a definite difference in accuracy. If you have a tight chamber, the closer the better, you may also want to neck size only.
We could go on about this for tomes. Keep everything as tight as possible for consistency is the golden rule.
 
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Well, this is the first time I read your post.

As you noticed above, you are having trouble torquing your screws. All of your pics show very nice groups. The first thing that is obviuos is that each pic has two distint groups. They are very close together but they are definitly different.

This is an indication of two things, bedding, cause may be loose screws, in your case, more than likely. Another reason could be loose scope bases or covers.

Nice looking set up you have there by the way. I'm willing to bet that rifle will shoot tight groups in a fairly wide range of powders and projectiles. From your groups, the rifle was put together right and isn't really fussy. Do you know if your chamber is tight and reamed for Palma or commercial specs, or is it a custom bench rest chamber? You may want to move your ogive a little closer to the lands as well. To far from the lands will cause double groups as well. H4831 wrote a little diatribe on his experiments with bullets seated into the lands and slightly off. No differences in pressures but a definite difference in accuracy. If you have a tight chamber, the closer the better, you may also want to neck size only.
We could go on about this for tomes. Keep everything as tight as possible for consistancy is the golden rule.

Its nothing more then a 700 dollar stock remington with 20" barrel... its a 700 SPS tactical 20"

I am going to pop it back in the houge stock and see if I can get the torque specs... I found a 700 police 26" barrel I am going to put on it... eventually... I cant decide if I should just sell this rifle and find another action or just swap barrels.

I mounted the scope and it should be done properly and tight I am going to check it again... I have a boresighter on the way because I didnt center the left and right and then use the windage screws on the mount to adjust dead center because I had no way of referenceing the position of the barrel and scope...
 
Well, it's your rifle and it's your call. Just because it's a factory rifle, doesn't mean it won't shoot well. I've seen several off the shelf rifles that equal or better custom jobs on the range, both in and out of competition. It's also a proven fact that shorter barrels are just as accurate as longer barrels and maybe even a little better, as they are stiffer.
That rifle is definitely a shooter. It only needs a bit of tweaking. Pillars for the stock can be made from aluminum/titanium arrow shafts. Your local archery dealer will have boxes full of the discarded ends, left over from when he makes up custom length shafts for his customers. You seem like a handy sort, so it would be easy for you to cut them to the desired lengths and glass them into your stock when you glass bed it.
It would certainly save you a pile of money. As I said, it's your call. I know and understand the accuracy addiction. It is an expensive and occupying habit forming monkey.
 
Well I took it out of the wood stock and put it back in the houge pillar beded factory stock... I was able to torque both bolts to 65 inch pounds.

I am going to order two more screws to modify for the thumbhole because these are just too long... I am going to take some time and pillar bed the thumbhole stock... and maybe learn how to bed it the other way too... I been watching some youtube videos on how to do it.

I went back and checked all the screws on the scope... and set the ring screws to 28 inch pounds and the windage screws to 45 inch pounds. I was unable to check the bases because its mounted up...

I got a 26" police takeoff barrel from another member I'll probally unmount the scope when I install the longer barrel. It will allow me to check the mounts torque specs.

Looked so pretty with the wood stock but looks so tactical now plus I got a new toy see if you can spot it. It helped shrink my high and low shots by 50% :D

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Well another day of shooting I am getting better, did some 200, 400, and 600 yard shooting today... maybe next weekend I think I am at the point that I could hit 8.5x11 sheet of paper at 800 yards. I am soon going to run out of room I think 800 is max that I can go on this property.

Here is a picture to show just how far 600 yards is... you don't think its that far till you have walked about 6000 yards to check the paper :)
This is zoomed in 4 times that white paper is 36"X36" when you zoom out in the other picture you can barely see it.
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Here is my best 10 shot group from sighting in and getting my scope setup for 600 yards. Its 8, 1/4" across and from 4 to 10 6" vertical which is not to bad I am looking to shoot 10 shots in a 6" group pretty close to getting that done maybe next time.
target-2.jpg


Reactive targets are much better for shooting long range you can tell right away if you have a hit.
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Have you got a new chronograph yet? Curious to know your speeds.

Nope it seems like is off... seems much faster then its suposed to be. Maybe my zero just changed due to temp change but its about 10-15 clicks off what the comptuer tells me. I went from shooting in -10 to +20 so that could do it.

I need to get one but I am very unhappy with the service at shooting crony they are "to busy" to take my credit card information via email. I am going to have to get them on the phone and get another one.
 
Shot 3/4" Moa all day today at 100 and 200 yards. Finally found out the limit of my skill and equiptment and enviroment.

Maxed out at 725 yards...Not sure if its exact because I coudln't get a straight line reading on the range finder target was too small. I need to get some paper out that far so I could see how far I was missing, it was getting late and I needed to pack up and go home... there will always be next time.

I'll be getting my replacement chrony this week and try and pick up a wind guage so I can get serious about breaking the 800 yard barrier.
Used my ballitics chart dialed in and took 10 shots but missed all of them target was 6"X7" at 725 yards... there was a strong left to right wind however I really need to get a wind guage because guessing isnt cutting it.
 
FYI I don't expect a wind gauge will be particularly useful (I have no idea what they cost).

"Just guessing" the wind strength actually works pretty well, especially if you do some target shooting on a conventional range (you get better, quicker feedback there, so you can calibrate yourself quicker).

Keep in mind that the bullseye for fullbore target shooting is about 2MOA in size, and that that isn't hit all the time, especially with sighters. Putting up a target smaller than that in the field, especially under conditions where it is difficult to spot your misses, is a very challenging setup.

If you can arrange to have a 4-5 MOA area in which misses can be spotted (e.g dirt in which bullet splashes can be seen, a big piece of cardboad or plywood, etc), then things are a *lot* easier.
 
Normally I have a 36"X36" plywood but didnt want to carry it all the way out to 725 because the fields are planted and you can no longer drive on them.

Time for some cardboard its much lighter and can be folded up for easy carrying thru the bush.

Because I am using ballistics tables they have built in calculations for wind... when setting up the target I can take a reading and then when back at my shooting location I can take a readying helps alot getting that first shot on paper.

We have a flag on the farm but I have no idea when its blowing and fully out vrs flapping in the wind how to determin the speed.

This one is $200 but I am sure there is some made in china one on ebay for about $20
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I havent given up... I will hit that gong 10 for 10 at 800 yards... but now that the crops are on and its summer time and the bugs are aweful already... I wont be doing as much shooting as before till fall when the crops come off again.
 
All that a wind meter tells you is the speed and direction of the wind at the location your are standing. You can estimate this yourself, especially with a bit of practice, though admittedly a wind meter ought to be more accurate and consistent.

It will be necessary for you to guesstimate the effective amount of wind over the distance of your shot. What is needed is the crosswind component, and if there are varying strengths at the different distances, you have to weight the wind closer to you more heavily than the wind nearer to the target.

A useful figure to know from your ballistics calcs is how many MINUTES of wind drift are produced by ONE MPH of crosswind, at each distance that is of interest to you. For example (from memory here) for typical .308 target rifle ballistics, it's about a quarter of a minute per mph at 300, and about one MOA per MPH at 1000. So 3MPH of crosswind will need about three quarters of an MOA when shooting at 300, and about three MOA when shooting at 1000.

Another useful thing to know is that it is quite common for the actual amount of crosswind to be a fair bit less than you might expect. While ten and fifteen MPH winds are not uncommon, it is somewhat uncommon to encounter that much direct crosswind in common shooting situations. Far, far more of my shots fired at 1000 yards have been fired with 3 MOA of windage than with 15 MOA of windage.

(Obviously there are exceptions and sometimes you are in open fields or open waters and there really is 20MPH of wind and you really do need 20 MOA of windage to make the shot.)
 
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